non-ABS instrument cluster replaced w/ABS - brake lights ON

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non-ABS instrument cluster replaced w/ABS - brake lights ON

Postby chrissnapp » Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:25 am

Replaced instrument cluster on my '03 R1150R without ABS with an ABS cluster and harness... Brake light stuck "on."
Can I clip a wire on the harness to turn off the search for ABS feedback?
Frazzled with electrical ignorance, here...
Any advice appreciated
Thanks -
Chris

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Re: non-ABS instrument cluster replaced w/ABS - brake lights ON

Postby Sunbeemer » Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:50 pm

Brake warning light?
Last edited by Sunbeemer on Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:04 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: non-ABS instrument cluster replaced w/ABS - brake lights ON

Postby chrissnapp » Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:53 pm

Umm, I must not have been clear...

I'd prefer to have brake lights when I apply the brakes. Currently the brake light is always on... I have checked the sensors and brake levers...

I'm guessing the ABS harness/instrument cluster is confusing my non-ABS braking system and it's responding with a "constant-on" state. It doesn't make sense to me. I'm hoping somebody knows how the ABS sensors and the wiring harness and the motronic(?) interact. Maybe just replace the harness to bypass ABS? That is the only system change I've made since it lay worked. I have no other clues as to what would cause my brake light to stay hot.

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Re: non-ABS instrument cluster replaced w/ABS - brake lights ON

Postby sweatmark » Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:01 pm

chrissnapp wrote:Replaced instrument cluster on my '03 R1150R without ABS with an ABS cluster and harness... Brake light stuck "on."
Can I clip a wire on the harness to turn off the search for ABS feedback?
Frazzled with electrical ignorance, here...
Any advice appreciated
Thanks -
Chris


You installed the entire ABS wiring harness? Same year and/or model?

Did you add iABS (harness + module + ABS relay + switches + wheel sensors + wheel tone rings + rear wheel offset spacer) or was the harness a repair replacement for original non-ABS harness?

Did you know that the non-ABS bike uses conventional normally open (NO) circuit brake switches, and the iABS version uses normally closed (NC) switches?

What connections did you make at the iABS module connector, if no iABS module was added?
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Re: non-ABS instrument cluster replaced w/ABS - brake lights ON

Postby chrissnapp » Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:51 pm

Thanks for input, Sweaty Mark...

Only the instrument cluster wires and instrument cluster changed. I presume that means the new connection was "a repair replacement for original non-ABS harness." (And I'm only guessing that the harness/ABS is a factor.)

The "new" instruments and wires plugged right into the existing coupler - I made no modifications or other iABS connections. And I never thought anything about it because it matched. Until I noticed the brake light stayed on. Then I remembered that the '03 had ABS and non-ABS models, and noticed a "brake failure" light on the dash that I don't think was on the previous dash; could be way wrong on that recollection. (Shouldn't the ABS harness be a different coupler than the non-ABS?) I pulled my Clymer manual and the wiring diagram shows only the ABS version (wth, man?). The clock and tach work fine.

I know nothing about NO and NC switches; if I'm hearing what you're smearing, and the coupler is the same, that might be getting close to what I'm seeing. (An NO switch - "off" when open - is flipped to NC and so stays on...?)

This kind of "flip" is what I was hoping to reverse, but I expected it to be a "soft smarts" kind of thing and not a physical, hardware, i/o thing.

Do I have an expensive, lipstick-only, replacement instrument panel that I must disconnect in order to have operable brake lights?

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Re: non-ABS instrument cluster replaced w/ABS - brake lights ON

Postby sweatmark » Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:18 pm

OK, so you're only referring to the instrument cluster's wiring pigtail and connector when you say "ABS harness"?

(That's very different from the bike's full wiring harness.)

And all you have done is connect an ABS-version instrument cluster into the non-ABS bike's instrument connector located on the front subframe?

Oh, and USA or Euro version bike?

Will await your answers and then check the SLP for potential differences in wire/pin assignments for that connector, ABS versus non-ABS.

<edit> Still waiting for response, but checked SLP: confirmed that only difference between ABS and non-ABS R1150R Roadster instrument harness is the pair of ABS warning lamp circuits. Non-ABS bike brake lamp circuit is conventional and simple: Fuse 1 supplies both NO brake switches, without any interconnection to other bike systems. Stuck brake switch or shorted/broken wires somewhere else in bike's harness would be my guess re: brake lamp circuit always on.
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Re: non-ABS instrument cluster replaced w/ABS - brake lights ON

Postby chrissnapp » Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:20 pm

"OK, so you're only referring to the instrument cluster's wiring pigtail and connector when you say "ABS harness"?"

Yes.

"And all you have done is connect an ABS-version instrument cluster into the non-ABS bike's instrument connector located on the front subframe?"

Correct.

"Oh, and USA or Euro version bike?"

USA.

"Checked SLP: confirmed that only difference between ABS and non-ABS R1150R Roadster instrument harness is the pair of ABS warning lamp circuits. Non-ABS bike brake lamp circuit is conventional and simple: Fuse 1 supplies both NO brake switches, without any interconnection to other bike systems. Stuck brake switch or shorted/broken wires somewhere else in bike's harness would be my guess re: brake lamp circuit always on."

Hmph... I checked the brake switches first and found no sticky mechanisms. And the brake light worked immediately before I connected the" new" instruments. I will disconnect the instrument cluster wiring pigtail and see if the brake light stays on. (And start chasing wire defects, if so...) If it goes back to normal after disconnecting, I'll report back here.

Thanks for your help.

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Re: non-ABS instrument cluster replaced w/ABS - brake lights ON

Postby sweatmark » Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:17 pm

Search here for "zip ties too tight" or "cut zip ties" for info about potential R1150R front wire harness damage. I don't recall a ghost brake light problem, but the front brake switch wire does run through that location. Your instrument module install might have bumped a broken wire bundle just the right (or wrong) amount.

Pull Fuse 1 to confirm there's nothing really crazy happening to the brake lamp power supply.

Disconnect the front and rear brake switches separately at their respective harness connectors to troubleshoot.

The ABS and non-ABS Roadster instrument harnesses differ by 2 wires, and none of the instrument circuits have anything to do with brake circuits front or rear.
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Re: non-ABS instrument cluster replaced w/ABS - brake lights ON

Postby Buckster » Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:21 am

sweatmark wrote:

Disconnect the front and rear brake switches separately at their respective harness connectors to troubleshoot.

.

I would start here. My back break switch little metal tab bent so that the light stayed on all the time.
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Re: non-ABS instrument cluster replaced w/ABS - brake lights ON

Postby chrissnapp » Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:05 pm

Sunbeemer wrote:Brake warning light?


no.
brake light in back.

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Re: non-ABS instrument cluster replaced w/ABS - brake lights ON

Postby chrissnapp » Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:36 pm

sweatmark wrote:Search here for "zip ties too tight" or "cut zip ties" for info about potential R1150R front wire harness damage. I don't recall a ghost brake light problem, but the front brake switch wire does run through that location. Your instrument module install might have bumped a broken wire bundle just the right (or wrong) amount.

Pull Fuse 1 to confirm there's nothing really crazy happening to the brake lamp power supply.

Disconnect the front and rear brake switches separately at their respective harness connectors to troubleshoot.

The ABS and non-ABS Roadster instrument harnesses differ by 2 wires, and none of the instrument circuits have anything to do with brake circuits front or rear.


a) damn, those ties were ridiculously tight around the head/neck.

1. Fuses look fine

2. disconnecting the rear-brake wiring harness did not impact the brake light status.

disconnecting the front-brake wiring harness killed the light, along with some other important things.

now what?

b) i don't see how i'm in this "closed" circuit situation. it still makes no sense why the light would stay "ON," unless one of the switches was stuck - and the switches are not stuck. I mean, they move freely, they're not bent, they're not pressed into the "engaged" position by a maladjusted handle. All of the mechanical parts operate as they should when pressed and released.

do the switches go bad "inside" the switch housings? (and stay stuck "ON"?)

the pins visible on the exterior of my switch housings move in and out when pressed and released.

Why would the light stay "ON," as a closed circuit, if the switches are moving freely?

I didn't see any frayed or broken wires, and, anyway, a frayed/broken/shorted wire would make the light go "OFF." no?

(I did NOT pull off the handgrip housing and hardware to check what the wiring connection looks like where it terminates at the lever).

i could get a new wiring harness, but i don't see how that would help...(?)

3. agreed on the two-wire differential between abs and non-abs models. also see on my diagram the circuits are unmixed (the harness does hold tach and clock wires, that's why the ABS is all i could come up with... as a guess.)

sheesh.

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Re: non-ABS instrument cluster replaced w/ABS - brake lights ON

Postby sweatmark » Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:50 pm

chrissnapp wrote:a) damn, those ties were ridiculously tight around the head/neck.

1. Fuses look fine

2. disconnecting the rear-brake wiring harness did not impact the brake light status.

disconnecting the front-brake wiring harness killed the light, along with some other important things.



So rear/foot brake switch is OK. Now test the effect of pulling the brake lamp fuse (Fuse 1).

(A) f the brake lamp turns off when Fuse 1 is pulled, then the front/hand switch is broken, or the +12V wire from the fuse has shorted with the brake lamp wire, bypassing the switch.

(B) If you pull Fuse 1 and the brake light remains lit, then a different +12V wire has shorted with the brake lamp wire. Those tight zip ties have caused many problems over the years.

My guess is (A), and you can fix with an eBay brake switch (<$30)... if (B) is true, then fixing the pinched wires at front subframe is do-able. Search here for stories of similar repairs.
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Re: non-ABS instrument cluster replaced w/ABS - brake lights ON

Postby chrissnapp » Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:27 am

a) removal of fuse #1 did not affect the brake light steady-on state.
b) if i'm hearing what you're smearing, and what i'm reading on the site, it may be that:
-wire casings (under a too-tight tie, perhaps) somewhere along the brakelight wire (gray/yellow) travel path have disintegrated and the brakelight wire is contacting a hot wire, lighting it up
-some other amalgam of weird wire wonders, resulting from age and friction and freak-occurrence universe happenstance, has occurred in the depths of my electrical circuitry.
-i might find something as weird as a fused set of wires in cramped quarters cinched up too close to a heat source

dang, you know what... i recall smelling the distinct odor of burning wires at some point... i thought it was a car near me in traffic.

Sweaty Mark, you're a damn genius.

so, i thoroughly inspect the brakelight wiring path, starting in the front subframe area, looking for frays/cracks/breaks/melting, until i find the offending short. and then i fix it.

is that correct?

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Re: non-ABS instrument cluster replaced w/ABS - brake lights ON

Postby sweatmark » Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:28 am

chrissnapp wrote:a) removal of fuse #1 did not affect the brake light steady-on state...

b) if i'm hearing what you're smearing, and what i'm reading on the site, it may be that:
-wire casings (under a too-tight tie, perhaps) somewhere along the brakelight wire (gray/yellow) travel path have disintegrated and the brakelight wire is contacting a hot wire, lighting it up...

-i might find something as weird as a fused set of wires in cramped quarters cinched up too close to a heat source...

so, i thoroughly inspect the brakelight wiring path, starting in the front subframe area, looking for frays/cracks/breaks/melting, until i find the offending short. and then i fix it.
is that correct?


Yes. What you might do next:

Key switch on - I assume the brake lamp switches on with key switch; confirm either way.

Disconnect the front brake switch wiring pigtail connector at front subframe. Brake light might or might not turn off. Confirm.

If yes, then replace brake switch+wiring+connector with used part.

If no, then start pulling fuses to see what might be power source for the brake lamp. There's a chance that the power source isn't fused; the front brake switch & brake lamp wires run through main bike harness in close proximity to always-hot wires before the harness reaches front subframe connectors.
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Re: non-ABS instrument cluster replaced w/ABS - brake lights ON

Postby sweatmark » Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:40 pm

Oh, and you have checked both circuits at the brake/tail bulb? The spade terminal connectors can be reversed at the bulb socket.
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Re: non-ABS instrument cluster replaced w/ABS - brake lights ON

Postby chrissnapp » Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:44 pm

thanks sweatmark -

sweatmark wrote:
Yes. What you might do next:

A. Key switch on - I assume the brake lamp switches on with key switch; confirm either way.

Disconnect the front brake switch wiring pigtail connector at front subframe. Brake light might or might not turn off. Confirm.

If yes, then replace brake switch+wiring+connector with used part.

If no, then start pulling fuses to see what might be power source for the brake lamp. There's a chance that the power source isn't fused; the front brake switch & brake lamp wires run through main bike harness in close proximity to always-hot wires before the harness reaches front subframe connectors.

1. Oh, and you have checked both circuits at the brake/tail bulb? The spade terminal connectors can be reversed at the bulb socket.


a) confirmed brake light comes on when ignition switched "on"

1) switched connections at brake/tail bulb; pulled fuse 1; brake light did NOT come on with key switch.

I'm thinking that means i'm back to this step:

sweatmark wrote:(A) if the brake lamp turns off when Fuse 1 is pulled, then the front/hand switch is broken, or the +12V wire from the fuse has shorted with the brake lamp wire, bypassing the switch.


(a) and my first step would be to determine if the +12V wire from the fuse has shorted the brake light wire. (and that could happen anywhere along the path, but most likely at the head/neck or under the fuse box or under the tool box...

(b) and if i don't find that short, or something similar that's giving the brakelight wire a charge, then i replace the front brakeswitch+wiring+coupler to see if that works...

yah?

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Re: non-ABS instrument cluster replaced w/ABS - brake lights ON

Postby sweatmark » Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:46 am

The green-yellow wire should be connected at terminal marked 54 of tail socket; that’s the brake light circuit. Brown ground wire at terminal 31. Remaining tail light wire to 3rd terminal.

If it was me, I’d buy a used front brake switch assembly (switch, harness, connector). Easy install and eBay cheap.

If you have a multimeter, simply check continuity (resistance) at your existing front brake switch harness connector.
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Re: non-ABS instrument cluster replaced w/ABS - brake lights ON

Postby dandeldesierto » Thu Jun 21, 2018 11:29 am

I can't offer specific help, but I've been looking into removing the ABS system from my '04. Reading online articles and watching youtube videos, several people have remarked about some wiring change necessary to prevent the ABS system from reading failure or non-setting of ABS after removal. You may want to watch some of the videos to get a more definitive look at that.

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Re: non-ABS instrument cluster replaced w/ABS - brake lights ON

Postby chrissnapp » Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:59 pm

dandeldesierto wrote:I can't offer specific help, but I've been looking into removing the ABS system from my '04. Reading online articles and watching youtube videos, several people have remarked about some wiring change necessary to prevent the ABS system from reading failure or non-setting of ABS after removal. You may want to watch some of the videos to get a more definitive look at that.


thanks, DDD...

mine never had ABS - i just couldn't say that clearly in my original post.

;)

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Re: non-ABS instrument cluster replaced w/ABS - brake lights ON

Postby chrissnapp » Tue Jun 26, 2018 2:46 pm

sweatmark wrote:The green-yellow wire should be connected at terminal marked 54 of tail socket; that’s the brake light circuit. Brown ground wire at terminal 31. Remaining tail light wire to 3rd terminal.

If it was me, I’d buy a used front brake switch assembly (switch, harness, connector). Easy install and eBay cheap.

If you have a multimeter, simply check continuity (resistance) at your existing front brake switch harness connector.


Oh, you're gonna love this...

So i take your advice and decide to just buy the front brake switch assembly...

i don't have it yet, in the meantime, a nice day comes. i hop on the bike to run a mile and a half up the road to a class. oil light comes on... that's weird. get to my stop, check the oil level, all good. i go to class. i come back out, check the oil again, all good. turn the key... oil lamp still on. that's weird. i double-check oil and drive home. i check the oil when i get home and decide it's related to the original problem and it's not really an oil crisis. couple days later, same scenario on the class-run. when i leave class, i drive toward the house, hit my street and the headlight goes out... hmph. that's weird. i pull into the driveway, park, and click the high beams on to see if i blew a fuse or lost a filament. i see the high beam light come on, then go out, and watch a little trail of smoke rise up from the headlight housing... uh-oh. that's more than weird.

so, today i pull my wiring diagram (Clymer) and I don't see anything we've talked about on the front-brake switch wiring that's connected or relates directly to the headlight or the oil lamp circuitry.

seems like i'm in an obvious wire-short situation, requiring a deep-dive in the guts to isolate this melted clump of wires... in major wire grouping areas behind my neck/head where the zip-ties were too tight, and underneath the battery box and toolbox. here' i'll be looking to remove whatever section of wiring, connector to "unit," that has obvious problems on close inspection. is that the correct approach? do you have anything to warn me of before i go in there ripping ----- apart, err, um... i mean, before carefully clipping ties and thoroughly inspecting wires, wire casings, wire group coverings and harness connectors?

incidentally - i didn't see any obvious breaks/frays the last time i was under the tank testing the front-brake connector we discussed. I originally thought this was an issue with the wiring (or parts) that came with the used, replacement instrument panel. for example, the light for the tach never worked on the replacement cluster, the right turn signal indicator lamp always flickered dimly.

would anything there - i.e., in the instrument panel display/wiring, if damaged somehow, specifically from connector to unit, only - give this kind of feedback/short/impact directly to anything we've talked about so far re: brake-light switch inspection/testing/circuits/wiring?

thanks sweaty mark. please don't abandon me now, bro. we're almost to the issue... i can just FEEL IT.
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