Is This the Sign of Dreaded Spline Failure? No Power Over 5k RPM

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skylarmav1
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Is This the Sign of Dreaded Spline Failure? No Power Over 5k RPM

Post by skylarmav1 »

Not sure if this is spline, transmission or what...

Recently, I've noticed as I accelerate past 5000 RPM, the bike will not increase speed but only increase in RPM. When this has happened, I drop the throttle and we go on fine. There is no jerkiness to it at all. Also, it does not happen below about 5100 RPM and only happens if I'm slightly aggressive with the throttle. SIDE BAR-the bike shifts like butter - really smooth if I do it gently.

I bought the bike with 13k and now have about 27k. I change fluids religiously and am not an aggressive rider--most of the time. Besides the standard things that need upgrades and maintenance, the bike has been rock solid and a joy.

Could use some guidenace...even if it's painful.

Thx all,
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Re: Is This the Sign of Dreaded Spline Failure? No Power Over 5k RPM

Post by kirby »

Sounds more like the clutch is slipping for some reason. Abused in the past (some folks very hard on clutches) or a seal leak is causing oil on the plate.
You can pull the starter and have a look for a leak and general condition or the plate.(thickness)

BTW the constant speed(mesh) trans will shift fine without the clutch and spline failure will have symptoms across the complete rpm range
Last edited by kirby on Thu Oct 25, 2018 11:42 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Is This the Sign of Dreaded Spline Failure? No Power Over 5k RPM

Post by riceburner »

Agree with kirby - sounds like clutch slip to me.
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Re: Is This the Sign of Dreaded Spline Failure? No Power Over 5k RPM

Post by skylarmav1 »

Interesting. I barely use the clutch, meaning I pull it just a fraction of an inch to engage and I've been riding bike for 14k out of last 27k miles. Can you reccomend a Chris Harris video or other doc to know what I'm looking for and where when I pull starter? Also what is fix?

Thx smart people!
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Re: Is This the Sign of Dreaded Spline Failure? No Power Over 5k RPM

Post by skylarmav1 »

Interesting. I barely use the clutch, meaning I pull it just a fraction of an inch to engage and I've been riding bike for 14k out of last 27k miles. Can you reccomend a Chris Harris video or other doc to know what I'm looking for and where when I pull starter? Also what is fix?

Thx smart people!
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Re: Is This the Sign of Dreaded Spline Failure? No Power Over 5k RPM

Post by skylarmav1 »

Interesting. I barely use the clutch, meaning I pull it just a fraction of an inch to engage and I've been riding bike for 14k out of last 27k miles. Can you reccomend a Chris Harris video or other doc to know what I'm looking for and where when I pull starter? Also what is fix?

Thx smart people!
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Re: Is This the Sign of Dreaded Spline Failure? No Power Over 5k RPM

Post by riceburner »

The fix will be (most likely) a new clutch plate, so it's a relatively big (if simpler than you might expect) job.

I'd say that if you're very happy taking the tank off, and doing valve gear servicing yourself, and you understand what's happening there; then you'll be capable of doing the clutch replacement. If you're not, then it might be a good idea to get help. :)

As for why - when riding you need to pull the clutch lever ALL the way in. If you're only dis-engaging the plates very, very slightly, with a minimal pull on the lever, then you'll be increasing clutch wear. You need to separate the plates fully, remember, there's only 2 plates, rotating at crank speed, so you need to separate them properly otherwise they will rub against each other when the engine and gearbox input speeds are different (ie, when you're changing gear).

(not sure I've explained that brilliantly, but the upshot is - pull the lever fully!)
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Re: Is This the Sign of Dreaded Spline Failure? No Power Over 5k RPM

Post by sykospain »

Vidoes ?

Try these :-

This one is my combination of several different Chris Harris filmings before he got sick. Thankfully now recovered...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGf-tWobwEg&t=395s

This next guy is in the habit of missing out of his filming exactly what you have to do, but it's a general guide as to what has to happen :-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3GQGaPg8ec&t=1165s

Another one here showing the bike split and hinged sideways, rather than tail-up :-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PdVvxMwz_A

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Re: Is This the Sign of Dreaded Spline Failure? No Power Over 5k RPM

Post by skylarmav1 »

Thanks to both for the assistance. It sucks that chances are my riding technique is what prematurely caused the failure but another lesson learned. I can take tank off, etc so I'll look at vids and see if I can tackle myself. If I ride it to finish out the season-here in Pennsylvania, USA, as we only have a couple of months, will I further damage anything else or just risk full failure and getting stuck?

I guess I know what I'm doing over the winter :-)
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Re: Is This the Sign of Dreaded Spline Failure? No Power Over 5k RPM

Post by towerworker »

I doubt you'll hurt anything other then just more clutch disc wear which still may strand you. Or even worse suppose you end up in a traffic situation which requires quick throttle and acceleration............might not be available. Probably ought to park it.
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Re: Is This the Sign of Dreaded Spline Failure? No Power Over 5k RPM

Post by sykospain »

Don't forget, skylarmav1, if you DO have to replace the clutch, get one of the new Italian friction plates with the longer hub that will cover the full length of the gearbox input spline. More-or-less the same cost as a naff OEM Sachs plate, but puts extra service life on your clutch.
There might be another Thailand production run on the way, too.
Several BMW Motorrad spares specialist traders now have the new type - not usually dealers.

Image

3 years ago when my pet metallurgist tested the hub on a standard recommended Sachs replacement friction plate, after spectrometer and other tests, her summing up of the quality of the metal was thus :-
"Chinese Pig Iron".
Nuff said.
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Re: Is This the Sign of Dreaded Spline Failure? No Power Over 5k RPM

Post by sweatmark »

skylarmav1 wrote: Recently, I've noticed as I accelerate past 5000 RPM, the bike will not increase speed but only increase in RPM...

I bought the bike with 13k and now have about 27k. I change fluids religiously...
Any clutch fluid loss via clutch slave cylinder?
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Re: Is This the Sign of Dreaded Spline Failure? No Power Over 5k RPM

Post by skylarmav1 »

Thx gents. Watched the videos. I think I could do it but would be helpful to have a partner so I believe I'm on fall/winter project recruit mode. Thx for the insight on the plate. How does one search for the Italian version? Do you know if it has a special designation or just compare pics with what Sykospain showed me?
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Re: Is This the Sign of Dreaded Spline Failure? No Power Over 5k RPM

Post by skylarmav1 »

Actually Sykospain-think I just found one- https://www.beemerboneyard.com/cla33264ck.html
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Re: Is This the Sign of Dreaded Spline Failure? No Power Over 5k RPM

Post by Tennmoto »

How much would it cost in the shop to repair a damaged clutch spline?
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Re: Is This the Sign of Dreaded Spline Failure? No Power Over 5k RPM

Post by towerworker »

sykospain wrote:Don't forget, skylarmav1, if you DO have to replace the clutch, get one of the new Italian friction plates with the longer hub that will cover the full length of the gearbox input spline. More-or-less the same cost as a naff OEM Sachs plate, but puts extra service life on your clutch.
There might be another Thailand production run on the way, too.
Several BMW Motorrad spares specialist traders now have the new type - not usually dealers.

Image

3 years ago when my pet metallurgist tested the hub on a standard recommended Sachs replacement friction plate, after spectrometer and other tests, her summing up of the quality of the metal was thus :-
"Chinese Pig Iron".
Nuff said.
Good to know. I've near 94K with mine and I know at some point I'll need to consider this. Thanks for the info!
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Re: Is This the Sign of Dreaded Spline Failure? No Power Over 5k RPM

Post by sykospain »

As noted above, BBY in the USA does the longer-hubbed clutch friction plate, as does MW in Yokk-shurrrrr, plus RK Motonet here in Spain, plus a few German Beemer bike spare parts suppliers. Shouldn't be too hard to get hold of one, and please do so even if you think your clutch is still within its wear-level spec. If you intend to keep the bike, you'll need that plate eventually.

And as tennmoto asked last week, the cost of a dealer-repair of a worn gearbox input spline - unless you're a shareholder in Verizon, DuPont, Vodafone and Standard Oil, don't even ask.
apart from the fact that Berlin won't be re-supplying input shafts until mid-December. But then you have to pull the gearbox apart to install it.
Horrendous.
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Re: Is This the Sign of Dreaded Spline Failure? No Power Over 5k RPM

Post by skylarmav1 »

Update-I took the bike to local BMW dealer-special winter prices for labor $69.00 per hour. They confirmed clutch is slipping and quoted me $ 1,300 to replace with BMW parts or if I use the Beemer Boneyard kit, it would be about $200 less. I'm not as concerned about the saving as much as the aftermarket kit. The dealer says while they have no problem installing those parts, they won't warrenty anything other than BMW parts so if something goes bad, I could be stuck in a "he said, she said." However, I've been advised on this post that the aftermarket provided link above is a far superior product. Any thoughts or suggestions? Thanks much!
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Re: Is This the Sign of Dreaded Spline Failure? No Power Over 5k RPM

Post by sweatmark »

Read this ADV thread:
https://advrider.com/f/threads/clutch-p ... d.1338045/

If DIY is not your preference, then at least you know what's involved in clutch slave cylinder and clutch disk replacement.

Your bike's symptoms match the ADV thread's OP (original post)... I asked above if you noticed change in clutch fluid level, because clutch slave problem, fluid leak, contaminated clutch is probable cause of your symptoms. This has nothing to do with transmission input splines.
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Re: Is This the Sign of Dreaded Spline Failure? No Power Over 5k RPM

Post by skylarmav1 »

Good morning-here anyway! There is no leakage, the shop confirmed that it is the clutch slipping. I watched the 2 hour Chris Harris video on replacing the clutch plate etc. and I thinks it's a bit above my skills. I went through the ADV link but didn't quite understand it all. It seems to me that the slave cylinder should be replaced with the clutch plate? Yes?
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