Surge shows up

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Roger 04 rt
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Re: Surge shows up

Postby Roger 04 rt » Mon Oct 14, 2019 6:51 am

racurley wrote:Dang. I finally installed the new spark plug cables. Still having a surge issue. I'm guessing it is either: something I did with the throttle body or sync; fuel injector related (doubtful); or, maybe controller. Not sure what else effects the fueling.


You don’t have to read the whole thread, just follow this procedure. Since you’ve put different TBs on you should use step 1.5. Once that process is completed, we can try other things.

https://advrider.com/f/threads/tps-alig ... t-32357006

racurley
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Re: Surge shows up

Postby racurley » Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:55 pm

Thanks Roger. What a great write up! I have returned to the original TB so they should be the same. I didn't do any adjustments to them beyond BBS and throttle cable. I think I will just follow your procedures more closely before trying step 1.5. I'm not really sure how to take a reading from the TPS. Does you have an explanation for that somewhere?
2003 R1150R
1999 Yamaha VStar 650 Classic (sold)
1991 Honda Nighthawk CB250 !!

Roger 04 rt
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Re: Surge shows up

Postby Roger 04 rt » Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:07 am

I don't have one handy and would have to hunt for it. Hopefully someone here can explain how to measure TPS voltage.

racurley
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Re: Surge shows up

Postby racurley » Mon Dec 16, 2019 10:03 pm

So, I still have this stupid surge problem. I have attempted to follow the instructions a couple of times but I'm probably still doing something wrong. Didn't hear how to measure TPS voltage so haven't gone down that route. A couple of questions...

- when I do the TBS, I should back out the BBS's like 2.5 turns on each side and then not adjust them after that? I think I had to change one quite a bit to balance it at idle.
- would the Motoscan app be useful for diagnosis or settings? I don't want to shell out $$$ for the GS911.

Still getting a surge below 3,000 rpm. Idle is very rough sometimes. It will be idling and then it sounds like a cylinder didn't fire. Almost cuts out but keeps going. Even had it cut off on me as I slow down coming into my neighborhood. Surging is worse when I am riding at 25mph through my neighborhood coming home.
2003 R1150R
1999 Yamaha VStar 650 Classic (sold)
1991 Honda Nighthawk CB250 !!

Roger 04 rt
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Re: Surge shows up

Postby Roger 04 rt » Wed Dec 25, 2019 10:15 am

From your description of the problem and based on replacing one TB, my thought is that you should make sure all the BBS passageways are clear, make sure the new throttle plates are centered exactly in the TB bore, make sure there are no air leaks and then exactly (no shortcuts) follow the procedure posted earlier including step 1.5 (zero=250mV).

Then I would also run two tanks of fuel with Techron concentrate added. Also make sure that your bike has the correct coding plug installed.

racurley
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Re: Surge shows up

Postby racurley » Tue Dec 31, 2019 5:13 pm

Thanks Roger. Still not sure how to check and set the TPS. Anyone know how to do this? I don't have a GS411 but I do have a OBD2 adapter that works with this bike.
2003 R1150R
1999 Yamaha VStar 650 Classic (sold)
1991 Honda Nighthawk CB250 !!

Roger 04 rt
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Re: Surge shows up

Postby Roger 04 rt » Fri Jan 03, 2020 8:33 am

Since you don’t have a GS911 (can you borrow one?), you can measure the voltage between pins 1 & 4 on the TPS connector with it plugged in. Most do this by removing the connector and inserting a thin strand of wire into the pin 1 and pin 4 slots on the connector and then plugging that jury-rig back in. If you do that take care that you don’t short any adjacent pins in the connector.

Search around on the web, you can find some pictures of this technique.

Tundra Dweller
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Re: Surge shows up

Postby Tundra Dweller » Fri Jan 03, 2020 9:17 am

If you ever suspect a air leak causing a lean surge spray WD-40 around the intake boot seams while running. You will see white smoke out the exhaust if the WD is being burned in the combustion chamber. Old racer trick...
1974 Kawi H-1 500
1975 Norton 850
2002 BMW R1150R
2008 Suzuki Bandit 1250
2013 BMW GS 650 Sertao

racurley
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Re: Surge shows up

Postby racurley » Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:03 pm

Ok, I've read a bunch of topics on this (most referencing Roger 04 rt!) and thought I had it figured out. I connected to the TPS as described and found that it was measuring quite high (like .85V) so I reset it to spec at 0.36V by loosening the screws and turning the TPS to the right setting. I reset the motronic per normal. I set the BBS to 1.5 turns open and then used my manometer to balance.

It had the effect of getting rid of the rough idle for sure. Very happy about that. I was also able to get the idle around 1,100 rpm which was lower than before. When I blipped the throttle, it was not settling back to the same rpm and was not coming back into balance consistently. After doing my best on balancing, I went for a ride. Still surging under 3,000 rpm.

Decided to do the zero=250mV as instructed. I pulled the left TB off, cleaned it up, and then connected my DMM to it. It read 0.00V but would go up when I moved the throttle. Hmmm. Is this because I reset the montronic? I wasn't expecting this. I was expecting it to be more like 360mV like I had set it before. I loosened the TPS, loosened the stop screw, and adjusted it to 250mV. The position was quite a bit more open then before however (before, more positioned to the right, now more centered) Then, used the stop screw to move it to 350mV. Turns post contact was like 1/4 turn. Set the locking nut and reinstalled everything using a little silicone grease to guard against leaks. Adjusted the right TB stop screw the same amount (as far as I could tell).

Put play into the throttle cables by turning the adjusting screws cw so they were pretty low. Opened both BBS 2 turns. Reset TPS again (pulled fuse 5 for a few minutes, reinstalled, opened/closed throttle 3 times) with key on run. Started the bike and it's idling at like 2,600 rpm. I closed both BBS completely and no change. Deep sigh.

Well, I'm clearly not understanding something.
2003 R1150R
1999 Yamaha VStar 650 Classic (sold)
1991 Honda Nighthawk CB250 !!

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Buckster
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Re: Surge shows up

Postby Buckster » Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:17 am

I'm wondering if 1 or both of the TB butterflies are not bad. I would at this point take it to BMW in Chesapeake and let them sort it out.
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Roger 04 rt
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Re: Surge shows up

Postby Roger 04 rt » Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:27 am

racurley wrote:Ok, I've read a bunch of topics on this (most referencing Roger 04 rt!) and thought I had it figured out. I connected to the TPS as described and found that it was measuring quite high (like .85V) so I reset it to spec at 0.36V by loosening the screws and turning the TPS to the right setting. I reset the motronic per normal. I set the BBS to 1.5 turns open and then used my manometer to balance.

It had the effect of getting rid of the rough idle for sure. Very happy about that. I was also able to get the idle around 1,100 rpm which was lower than before. When I blipped the throttle, it was not settling back to the same rpm and was not coming back into balance consistently. After doing my best on balancing, I went for a ride. Still surging under 3,000 rpm.

Decided to do the zero=250mV as instructed. I pulled the left TB off, cleaned it up, and then connected my DMM to it. It read 0.00V but would go up when I moved the throttle. Hmmm. Is this because I reset the montronic? I wasn't expecting this. I was expecting it to be more like 360mV like I had set it before. I loosened the TPS, loosened the stop screw, and adjusted it to 250mV. The position was quite a bit more open then before however (before, more positioned to the right, now more centered) Then, used the stop screw to move it to 350mV. Turns post contact was like 1/4 turn. Set the locking nut and reinstalled everything using a little silicone grease to guard against leaks. Adjusted the right TB stop screw the same amount (as far as I could tell).

Put play into the throttle cables by turning the adjusting screws cw so they were pretty low. Opened both BBS 2 turns. Reset TPS again (pulled fuse 5 for a few minutes, reinstalled, opened/closed throttle 3 times) with key on run. Started the bike and it's idling at like 2,600 rpm. I closed both BBS completely and no change. Deep sigh.

Well, I'm clearly not understanding something.


Believe it or not, you’re closer than you think. I believe you misunderstand the z=250 process and I can see you’ve done it wrong. Go back and read it slowly. Resetting the Motronic is NOT part of the problem.

The TPS is never set to zero volts. The lowest valid reading that a TPS can be set to is 250 mV. Here is a high level outline for just the z=250 part (step 1.5) but read the full procedure in detail.


1) all cables loosened per the procedure. Make sure the fast idle lever is DOWN.
2) both TB fully clean
3) both throttle body screws stops loose
4) both BBS at 2.5 turns (not 1.5, they need to be open enough so you get a good idle, you’ll adjust them later. They can be open 3-3.5 if you need that to get a good idle. Just make sure they are open the same number of turns EXACTLY)
5) both TB butterflys accurately centered
6) both TB butterflys closed fully but not forced

7) set the TPS to 250 mV, lock down the TPS and don’t touch it again

8) turn the left throttle stop screw until the TPS read 340 mV (360 is NOT correct, you didn’t get it from my procedure) and lock the left stop screw in place and never touch it again. (Make sure to count the number of turns from when the TPS voltage started to move to when the TPS reached 340 mV.)

9) Set the right TB stop screw to the same position as the left by turning until contact plus the number of turns counted on the left side it step 8. Don’t lock it yet.

10) start the bike, warm it up, use your manometer to adjust ONLY the right TB stop screw until balanced (don’t worry what the RPM is yet) and then lock it down making sure it stays balanced and never touch that screw again

After you’ve done all that, then Follow my detailed TB sync to the letter.

racurley
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Re: Surge shows up

Postby racurley » Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:49 am

Thanks. I do feel like I'm close but am missing something.

My initial adjustment of the TPS was based on a Basic TPS adjustment document found on ADV Wisdom on advrider. It had the specs between .36 and .40. But, I've since decided to follow your zero=250mV.

So, 2 questions:

1) TB butterflys centered - remove the TB and look through it closed and see the amount of light around it? Use a feeler gauge to check 12 o'clock and 6 o'clock? Unscrew and move appropriately if not equal.

2) Why might I be getting a reading of 0 mV on my TPS? This seems to be my big problem right now. I inserted a small safety pin up through the silicone sealant around pins 1 and 4. Connected my DMM positive to #1 and negative to #2. Even though I had previously set it to 360mV, it is now coming up at a reading of zero. I expecting to undo the stop screw, bottom the butterfly, adjust the TPS to 250mV by turning the TPS and then locking down the screws, then use the stop screw to move it to 340mV. 250mV ended up being way too open. Not sure what to do with that.

Thanks for your detailed write ups on this process. Really great.
2003 R1150R
1999 Yamaha VStar 650 Classic (sold)
1991 Honda Nighthawk CB250 !!

Roger 04 rt
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Re: Surge shows up

Postby Roger 04 rt » Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:41 am

1) Regarding centering, that’s a good plan. If you scan my thread on ADVrider you will see JimH explain how he did that.

2) Here’s what you’re missing ... with the left TB fully closed by its spring, and without touching the TB stop screw which has been loosened for no contact ... you rotate the TPS to 250 mV and lock it down. The throttle plate stays fully closed by the spring while you do this. Does that make sense?

Then with #2 accomplished you use the TB stop screw to to open the throttle a tiny amount to 340 mV. And then you lock down the left TB stop screw.

racurley
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Re: Surge shows up

Postby racurley » Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:11 pm

Success!!!

So, Roger's consistent message of "follow the steps exactly" paid off. I think I was running into two primary issues....

1) My digital multimeter was confusing me. 250mV on mine is 0.25. Duh. Using small safety pins straightened out and pushed up through underneath worked great for getting the reading.
2) My DIY manometer was not dealing well with the throttle bodies being out of sync. I picked up a couple of vacuum gauges from HF and aquarium valves to dampen it a little. Probably not quite as accurate as my manometer tube but pretty good I think.

I went for a short ride tonight around the neighborhood (cold, light rain and of course dark). No surge whatsoever at any RPM. Idles at 1,100 steadily.

Roger 04 rt, thanks for all of your help. And thanks for all of the work and help over the last few years to others. Great details, research, and guidance to so many. I read through a lot of old threads. Certainly saved me a few $$$ not taking it to the dealer.
2003 R1150R
1999 Yamaha VStar 650 Classic (sold)
1991 Honda Nighthawk CB250 !!

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Buckster
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Re: Surge shows up

Postby Buckster » Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:53 am

Glad it worked out! Your tenacity paid off!
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racurley
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Re: Surge shows up

Postby racurley » Sun Jan 19, 2020 11:50 pm

Thanks. I went back and saw that I posted the initial problems back in mid-August. Sheesh.
2003 R1150R
1999 Yamaha VStar 650 Classic (sold)
1991 Honda Nighthawk CB250 !!


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