Is the electrical / charging system really this wimpy?

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SF_Hooligan
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Is the electrical / charging system really this wimpy?

Post by SF_Hooligan »

Background: when I bought my bike (2011 R1200R Classic) the sales guy warned me that the electrical systems on Beemers require a lot of juice or some such malarkey (I don't remember his actual warning) and that if I was doing a lot of short trips, I'd want to make sure to keep it on a trickle charger. I lived in San Francisco at the time, and did do a lot of short trips, but I ignored his warning and everything was fine.

Middle of last year, I replaced the battery with a new Yuasa. Groovy.

These days, my commute is longer, so the bike rarely gets ridden less than 20 miles, and is subjected to a lot of longer rides as well. But, I also have a lot of press bikes coming my way and it's not uncommon for the R to not get ridden for a couple weeks at time, in spite of still being one of my favorite bikes in the world. I mostly keep it on a trickle charger when it's not being ridden.

So this morning, I was going to ride the R, because all my other street legal bikes are taken apart and the FJR and Connie I have in the garage right now are a handful for the city (I now commute into SF, instead of living there). Bummer is, the R won't start. Classic near-dead battery symptoms... turns over slowly but won't quite do it. It was on a trickle charger until about a week ago, and off since, not ridden.

I dragged the FJR out and rode that, and didn't have a chance to troubleshoot, but here's what I know. The bike has two small things that might be drawing some current: a Doran TPMS and a 3BR TAPP USB port. The Doran draws a bit of power for the LCD screen and pinging the sensors, and I understand the USB port draws a tiny bit of current even when not in use. Again, battery is at most 8 months old, and has frequently been on a trickle charger when the bike isn't being ridden.

My questions:
1. Am I underestimating the draw from these two li'l guys? I know there are folks with the Doran unit on here—any feedback on how fast it'll drain a battery?
2. I have heard from many sources that the BMW electrical system is susceptible to running down batteries quickly (see warning from dealer above) but is this actually true? It's freakin' 2015—seems like we ought to have bikes that can run through the startup tests without killing the battery. Ok, the bike is a 2011, but still...
3. If so, does a Shorai or other battery solve this? I understand those can sit for a long time and still have juice to fire up the bike.

Any actual experience or info y'all can share will be much appreciated. Thanks!
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Re: Is the electrical / charging system really this wimpy?

Post by dbrick »

I don't think the electrical system is wimpy at all - 720 watts max from the alternator is a pretty good charge rate.

Each of your two accessories draws about 30 mA when turned off. The bike's electronics also have a parasitic drain to keep the memories intact; I don't know how much that is, but I imagine a search will yield that info, and also might tell you how long you could leave it unplugged and have it still start the bike - leaving it plugged-in would extend that time to more-or-less infinity.

The Shorais do maintain their charge better than other types of batteries, and they're very small and light, but they're expensive and are weak when cold - if the weather is in the 40s or less, folks have to turn on the lights for a minute or two to get the electrons moving before the bike will crank. OTOH, standard, AGM, or gel batteries are cheaper and do better at cold temperatures. Take your choice; for me, not a racer on a racebike, neither small size nor light battery weight are significant issues, so stock works for me.

My bike sits for weeks at a time, in a garage in a mild climate, and does fine without being plugged in. When I rode it regularly to work, it was a short ride (only a few miles, lots less than your Oakland -> SF run) and it stayed charged easily.
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Re: Is the electrical / charging system really this wimpy?

Post by SF_Hooligan »

dbrick wrote:I don't think the electrical system is wimpy at all - 720 watts max from the alternator is a pretty good charge rate.

Each of your two accessories draws about 30 mA when turned off. The bike's electronics also have a parasitic drain to keep the memories intact; I don't know how much that is, but I imagine a search will yield that info, and also might tell you how long you could leave it unplugged and have it still start the bike - leaving it plugged-in would extend that time to more-or-less infinity.

The Shorais do maintain their charge better than other types of batteries, and they're very small and light, but they're expensive and are weak when cold - if the weather is in the 40s or less, folks have to turn on the lights for a minute or two to get the electrons moving before the bike will crank. OTOH, standard, AGM, or gel batteries are cheaper and do better at cold temperatures. Take your choice; for me, not a racer on a racebike, neither small size nor light battery weight are significant issues, so stock works for me.

My bike sits for weeks at a time, in a garage in a mild climate, and does fine without being plugged in. When I rode it regularly to work, it was a short ride (only a few miles, lots less than your Oakland -> SF run) and it stayed charged easily.
Agreed—the question of wimpiness isn't the right question. I had already looked up the Doran, which has a stated draw of 30 mA in standby, but I haven't found the numbers for the USB dealy. I assume it's probably about the same or less. The thing that has me confused is that for three years, I had the same experience as you—never put it on a charger, and everything was fine. Maybe the Doran unit draws more than it should, or the USB thingy does? Maybe the Yuasa isn't as good a battery as the stocker was, or has a problem? It seems unlikely that the stocker would be materially better, but the Yuasa has never seemed to turn it over quite as well.

I don't care much about the weight reduction of a lithium battery, and the cost, while a lot for a battery, is just a drop in the bucket compared to all the money I spend on moto stuff. I'm aware of the low temp issues, but you know how it is 'round here—not too many mornings where it's below 40 degrees.

I guess I'll just take a peek when I get home and see what the deal is. Thanks.
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Re: Is the electrical / charging system really this wimpy?

Post by SF_Hooligan »

Hmph. Got home, checked out the bike... started right up. :lol:
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Re: Is the electrical / charging system really this wimpy?

Post by dbrick »

That's a new BMW feature: it can hear you. ;)
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Re: Is the electrical / charging system really this wimpy?

Post by P_Jensen »

The only thing which might be considered wimpy in the charging system is the 14 Amp hour battery, the R1150 series had 19 amp hour batteries (bigger and heavier). How are you "maintaining/charging" the battery? If you are using a non-BMW CanBus charger through the on-board socket you may in fact not be charging the battery at all, the owners manual indicates that "Charging the battery via the onboard socket is only possible with suitable chargers. Unsuitable chargers can result in damage to the motorcycle electronics." The on-board socket is more show than go with it's 5 amp limit, most heated gear draws more than the 5 amp limit.
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Re: Is the electrical / charging system really this wimpy?

Post by SF_Hooligan »

P_Jensen wrote:The only thing which might be considered wimpy in the charging system is the 14 Amp hour battery, the R1150 series had 19 amp hour batteries (bigger and heavier). How are you "maintaining/charging" the battery? If you are using a non-BMW CanBus charger through the on-board socket you may in fact not be charging the battery at all, the owners manual indicates that "Charging the battery via the onboard socket is only possible with suitable chargers. Unsuitable chargers can result in damage to the motorcycle electronics." The on-board socket is more show than go with it's 5 amp limit, most heated gear draws more than the 5 amp limit.
Interesting. I'd happily trade a bit of weight for more battery.

Battery has a direct pigtail. Not using the socket. I've never used the socket specifically because of the limitation you mention.
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Re: Is the electrical / charging system really this wimpy?

Post by deilenberger »

I have basically the same devices (plus my GPS) wired to my bike. Mine is a different TPMS, and a different USB port - but same idea. The TPMS has always been on a switched circuit (FuzeBlock - with switched and unswitched circuit selected by the position of the fuse), but I originally had the USB charger unswitched (Burns Moto Electric one..) and I noticed the battery was discharging more when the bike sat.

My TPMS has a feature I really like - when it boots up - it first goes into voltmeter mode - telling me the battery voltage before I hit the start button. That's where I noticed the difference having the USB charger connected on the unswitched circuit. It now lives on a switched fuse circuit. And the bike seems happy again.

The Yuasa batteries can be a bit finicky IMHO - I have two of them. One lives on a float-charger (Accumate) ready to swap into the bike if the other one acts up. Having it sitting there ready to go means I've never needed it (Eilenberger's Law of Spares at work again!)

One other thought - have a GPS? How's it wired up? Mine BMW Nav-IV) is powered off the BMW switched circuit (which parallels the auxiliary circuit.) Turns out - it draws current when off - if it's on an unswitched or active circuit. I found this out when I charged the battery once with the Accumate via the auxiliary port (Accumate can switch it on..) And when doing charging just disconnected the Accumate. I had to turn the GPS off when I hooked up the Accumate since it turned itself on when the port (and it's power connection) was activated.

What I didn't think of - when I disconnected the Accumate - it left the port ON, and that meant power was still going to the turned off GPS and GPS mount. The draw from the GPS/and/mount was enough to kill the battery stone cold dead (about 7 volts) in a week.

YMMV..
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Re: Is the electrical / charging system really this wimpy?

Post by SF_Hooligan »

Thanks Don. I do have a GPS, but it's wired through a Fuzeblock, and set to only get power when the bike is on. Now that I think about it, I sorta think the USB port may be wired that way too—I'll have to check.

I wired the Doran to have power all the time because I wanted to know pressures upon startup. If the Doran is on a switched circuit, it can take a few minutes to get a reading, so I opted to make it unswitched, so I can quickly get a reading before riding away. I commute on my bike, so hitting the road quickly every day is important to me.

Interesting that your switched-off GPS and mount was enough to kill the battery in a week. I'd have thought it'd last longer. Maybe the two hypothetically tiny draws I have are just too much for that li'l battery.
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Re: Is the electrical / charging system really this wimpy?

Post by deilenberger »

Might be worth measuring what the Doran is drawing. A cheapo VOM from Harbor Freight would do the job.. Put it in series with the power lead to the Doran (or remove the Doran fuse and simply bridge the fuse sockets on the FuzeBlock) and measure in mA..

More than 100mA would be problematical IMHO. Most vehicle electronics draw about 25mA when in quiescent mode (sleeping, no display or lights..)

If you have an alarm on the bike (which I doubt since most bikes with the alarm included the BMW TPMS since they're in the same electronics package under the seat) - that also would be worth checking (but harder to do since there is no easy break-out point.)
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Re: Is the electrical / charging system really this wimpy?

Post by arp »

It is interesting that the bike was only off the charger for a week and also that it started right up when you got home. Was it on the charger in the meantime?

My 2012 R1200R Classic has always been difficult to start if not ridden for more than two weeks (a rare occurrence until recently :)), but in the end there was always enough battery power to get it started. Now under those circumstances I crack the throttle open slightly and hold it open while pressing the start button and it starts first try. Tonight I tried that after not riding the bike for 30 days, and it started right up, although the cranking sounded weak. The only electrical accessories I have are Skene Design P3 tail lights but but they are tapped to a switched power wire. The OEM battery is 3 1/2 years old and the one time a I put a charger on the bike the battery was essentially already fully charged. The alternator certainly is not the weak link on the R1200R. I wonder if the problem is not so much the battery as the starter design. The R1200RTW, which has a decompression mechanism, starts with a purposeful growl, while the camhead, which does not have a decompression mechanism, was always a slow starter.
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Re: Is the electrical / charging system really this wimpy?

Post by ron prior »

Looking at specs on the new "wet-heads" 2015...I noticed the charge rate is lower than in the past. 42-45 amp [510 watt] as opposed to 50-60 amp [600-720 watt]....wondering why the change ? Particularly since electrical accessories seem more popular than ever.
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Re: Is the electrical / charging system really this wimpy?

Post by dbrick »

Perhaps the wethead decompression mechanism (anyone know how it works?) makes starting so much easier that a smaller starter and battery and alternator are OK.
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Re: Is the electrical / charging system really this wimpy?

Post by Clem »

They are saving weight with smaller generator and battery. More plastic, less metal. dbrick's question is interesting. I don't know the answer.
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Re: Is the electrical / charging system really this wimpy?

Post by Newportcycle »

My 2011 goes through spurts of slow cranking, mostly in the spring and fall when I tend to rely on heated gear. I believe its the variation in batteries to blame, the charging system seem robust enough, plenty of amps there. Never left me unable to start, so cant complain much.
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Re: Is the electrical / charging system really this wimpy?

Post by peels »

two weeks of inactivity, and mine is sluggish. 3-4 and it might click...

I have a charger, but I don't like keeping anything on a charger 24-7. So I put just mine on a day before I'm going to go ride if it gets like that. As long as it doesn't go way down into undercharge, they usually last. Large fluctuations kill them. Dad always taught me to think of batteries as balloons. Flex too much they get weak. :) Mines going on 4 yrs. 2 with me, 2 with PO.

charging system is fine for me. Even if it gets "clicky" ride for a few minutes and its back up....
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Re: Is the electrical / charging system really this wimpy?

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peels wrote:two weeks of inactivity, and mine is sluggish. 3-4 and it might click...

I have a charger, but I don't like keeping anything on a charger 24-7. So I put just mine on a day before I'm going to go ride if it gets like that. As long as it doesn't go way down into undercharge, they usually last. Large fluctuations kill them. Dad always taught me to think of batteries as balloons. Flex too much they get weak. :) Mines going on 4 yrs. 2 with me, 2 with PO.

charging system is fine for me. Even if it gets "clicky" ride for a few minutes and its back up....
EDIT to previous post:

welp....she got Clicky this morning after just one night. :( new battery time methinks. I get to try my hand at the art of tank removal. :roll:
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Re: Is the electrical / charging system really this wimpy?

Post by MTBeemer »

peels wrote:
peels wrote:two weeks of inactivity, and mine is sluggish. 3-4 and it might click...

I have a charger, but I don't like keeping anything on a charger 24-7. So I put just mine on a day before I'm going to go ride if it gets like that. As long as it doesn't go way down into undercharge, they usually last. Large fluctuations kill them. Dad always taught me to think of batteries as balloons. Flex too much they get weak. :) Mines going on 4 yrs. 2 with me, 2 with PO.

charging system is fine for me. Even if it gets "clicky" ride for a few minutes and its back up....
EDIT to previous post:

welp....she got Clicky this morning after just one night. :( new battery time methinks. I get to try my hand at the art of tank removal. :roll:
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Re: Is the electrical / charging system really this wimpy?

Post by peels »

sounds like a winner.
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