Third fuel strip in 600 miles

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peckhammer
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Third fuel strip in 600 miles

Post by peckhammer »

I've just had my 4th fuel strip go TU. The last 3 failures have happened in the past 600 miles. Yes, they are failing about every time I fill up.

Any ideas?

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Re: Third fuel strip in 600 miles

Post by dbrick »

Sometimes, they do that. The failure rate has gone down significantly in the past few years, as a more recently-designed part (different part number) has been distributed. I think Don E has the record at nine replacements on his '07. My '07, OTOH, is still on its original one.

Fuel strips on US-delivered bikes are now covered by BMWNA for twelve years from the date the bike was first put in service.
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Re: Third fuel strip in 600 miles

Post by Don C »

Mine is still the original. From 2007. It indicates 30 miles remaining when the tank is running dry. Other than that, it's still OK.
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Re: Third fuel strip in 600 miles

Post by deilenberger »

dbrick wrote:Sometimes, they do that. The failure rate has gone down significantly in the past few years, as a more recently-designed part (different part number) has been distributed. I think Don E has the record at nine replacements on his '07. My '07, OTOH, is still on its original one.

Fuel strips on US-delivered bikes are now covered by BMWNA for twelve years from the date the bike was first put in service.
Surprisingly (knocking on oak-grain Formica[tm]) - mine survived the C2C2C trip. So did my Schuberth SRC. Only failure was a steering damper and an O2 sensor. Both may have been marginal when I left (but unrealized..) Both are fixed. Only 95,500 miles on the bike, surprised that the damper went that soon.. :)
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Re: Third fuel strip in 600 miles

Post by dbrick »

You complained about the bike's sensitivity to cross-winds on the way west and north. Was this tendency reduced or eliminated after the damper was replaced?
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Re: Third fuel strip in 600 miles

Post by roger l »

Don:
How did you know that you O2 sensor went bad? What did the bike do or did not do when it was bad?


Thanks
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Re: Third fuel strip in 600 miles

Post by deilenberger »

roger l wrote:Don:
How did you know that you O2 sensor went bad? What did the bike do or did not do when it was bad?

Thanks
Roger L
Hi Roger,

Not the first one I've had fail actually.. so I'm somewhat sensitive to the symptoms.

The symptoms are:
- crappola idle quality
- poor power on takeoff (which makes getting up David Brick's hill sort of exciting.. :) )
- small throttle surge - at small throttle openings you can feel the engine hunting for a good mixture.

Mileage isn't generally effected. And above about 4K - the engine feels basically the same.

Turns out the system is designed so if one O2 sensor fails - the ECU uses the output from the other one to set both cylinders mixtures. It keeps the bike rideable, but it's not an altogether pleasant ride.

What I'm more concerned with is why I've had several fail. There is no silicone in the input tract (something known to kill O2 sensors). The cylinder burns cleanly, even with the sensor not working. And the bike uses absolutely no oil (the level was the same after a 7,570 mile trip as it was when I left.) I do not regularly use any fuel additives, but after getting what felt like a bad tank of fuel (same sort of symptoms, but even worse - stalling at idle) I did add some IsoHeat alcohol additive to remove any water in the fuel. It's possible I guess that the sensor didn't like that.

When both sensors are working - it idles wonderfully, and the clanking of the transmission in neutral with the clutch engaged (connected) is gone. When one craps out, it sounds like a bucket of bolts until I pull in the clutch lever.

Easy enough to check their operation if you have a GS-911, all you have to do is plot both sensors outputs (the GS-911 has a function to do just that.) This failure the bad sensor (which I'd previously replaced with an aftermarket one) has output of 0.2xxV - and no switchover. A healthy sensor will show voltage switching at about a 1-2 second interval from 0.2xxV-1.0xV. Plotting them side by side it's quite obvious:

Image

That's a plot with two good sensors. If one is bad it will be quite obvious (basically either almost no switching, or very slow switching, or a flat-line.)

There are alternative sources for sensors.. BMW wants around $250+ per sensor (silly money IMHO.)
- AutoZone has a direct replacement, made by the same people as BMW uses. Plugs right in. Cost is around $175
- Euromotoelectrics (http://www.euromotoelectrics.com) has a direct plug in one - using a Denso sensor. Cost was around $95 with 3 day delivery
- Denso makes a universal 4 wire O2 sensor - which is what I used the first time one failed. It comes with a splice kit to mate it to the existing connector. Since I didn't want to chance the connector being the cause of the failure, I decided to go with the Euromotoelectrics one. Cost difference was only about $25.

More then you ever wanted to know about 02 sensors and boxer motors.. :)
Don Eilenberger - NJ Shore
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Re: Third fuel strip in 600 miles

Post by deilenberger »

dbrick wrote:You complained about the bike's sensitivity to cross-winds on the way west and north. Was this tendency reduced or eliminated after the damper was replaced?
Hi David,

It was a wonderful change.. no more sensitivity to cross-winds and truck wakes. I could feel them, but the bike kept tracking straight without any wobble as I passed through them. I suspect the damper was on it's way out before I left, but lack of any visible leakage prevented me from spotting it. That and the rain the first 10 days probably washed a lot of the evidence away.

Wish I'd known it (and fixed it) before I left. Would have made the first 5,000 miles much pleasanter.
Don Eilenberger - NJ Shore
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Re: Third fuel strip in 600 miles

Post by roger l »

Don:
Thanks for the information on the O2 sensor. I need to hook up the GS-911 to the bike and look at my sensors. I think one is bad. My bike does not idle very smooth and it does sound lie a bucket of bolts when the clutch is out running in neutral. I thought that I was having problems with the clutch and did a search for "clutch noise" on this forum to see what could be wrong. I will look at the O2 sensor and see what is up.

Thanks again for all of the great information you have on these bikes. I hope you trip across the country was a good one.


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Re: Third fuel strip in 600 miles

Post by roger l »

Don:
I checked the O2 sensors with the GS-911 the graphs look similar to the one you showed above so it looks like I do not have a bad O2 sensor. The bike idles rough and it kind of loud when it is in neutral and the clutch is out. Other than that the bike runs great. I commute to work on the bike and the ride is mostly freeway. The last (2) tanks of gas I averaged 48 to 50 MPG.


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Re: Third fuel strip in 600 miles

Post by dbrick »

Roger,

Perhaps viewtopic.php?f=20&t=27819&p=231101 will help the rough idle.
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Re: Third fuel strip in 600 miles

Post by psycle.vt »

Had the fuel strip replaced in my '13 R1200R at around 17k miles. It had started giving strange results (not like the totally dead failure when the one went on my 09). One time it said I had 196 miles to go just before I put in 4.9Gal and the fuel bars were going UP during that ride. That original strip had been pretty predictable except that it normally said that I still had 20 miles or so to go before empty when in fact I was running on fumes.
The new strip is also pretty predictable but it tells me I am out of gas when I have 1/2 a gallon left. It now has almost 6k miles on it (trip to rally and back). Fortunately Josh's bike uses a bit more gas than mine, so we would stop when he needed it and I was OK.
Dealer (Max's) is not too hopeful that there are any adjustments that could fix it.

Just need to know that I should start looking for gas when the bike tells me it is empty. The Avg MPG is pretty much spot on, so I can calculate the real miles to go whether we are getting 39 mpg at 80 into a 20 mph headwind or 50 mpg having fun in the Big Horn mountains.

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Re: Third fuel strip in 600 miles

Post by roger l »

My fuel strip is currently out. It says the tank is empty all the time. I am taking the bike in next week for the rear flange recall and a new fuel strip. I know that I can go 200 miles on a full tank. When I fill the tank I set the trip meter. I can live without the fuel strip but If I am taking it in anyhow have them fix it.


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Re: Third fuel strip in 600 miles

Post by Newportcycle »

My second fuel strip just gave up on the trip to Billings, unfortunate and inconvenient, however not the end of the world. I confirmed during my trip that the "Average MPG" indicator is very accurate and I can gauge just when I need to begin looking for gas. As was Cy's experience I was between 37mpg and 58mpg.
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Re: Third fuel strip in 600 miles

Post by Kobe22 »

Well, we can pretend the emperor's clothes are invisible but eventually some Japanese kid will walk into the room and ask why BMW riders 'deal' with so much crap. I've read things on here (and not just in this thread mind you) that would sound like an design/efficiency-improvement no-brainers. Frankly it's as if BMW was Apple before Apple; they are unto how utterly gullible people are. There was a bit of noise but Apple single-handedly made every manufacturer of headphones retool because well they could. BMW has been doing this for ages; the weather stripping on my 3 series went as did most others on the forum, long before comparable Honda's and Toyota owners had even noticed that such a thing existed in their cars. My fuel strip is gone on my 2007 R1200R; I never had THAT problem on my Rockster, I had plenty of others - the million dollar question is who thought this was a design/performance improvement? It seems unless CNN has 5 angles on the milkman mid-stroke BMW refuses to admit that she's been cheating us. I'm venting, sure, but man you wish sometimes that we'd grow a pair like the old Soviets. I went in to have the strip replaced they removed the filler neck to discover screws rusted solid - I mean I have a ZZR 600 that I treat like trash and it cost me the price of rims on my BMWs. What's my point? I don't have any, will someone just take my hand? lol! I wish I were joking; I've seen this from their cars to their motorcycles. My Dad's 540 had issues that would boggle any reputable manufacturers QA board. His new X6. Take a look at that picture if you can and tell me or any owner of a premium product that this is 'wear and tear' - I don't know if anyone's wearing let alone tearing!

https://photos.app.goo.gl/3UAMlbWiVkqMxM092

BTW Don't the 2016 R's look sick? :roll:
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Re: Third fuel strip in 600 miles

Post by Newportcycle »

Kobe22,
Don't disagree with your position, the brand suffers from numerous issues, many of which are self inflicted right in the engineering office. I have done about the only thing available to me to do, I have the strip replaced each and every time it fails, I also get my dig's in on every internet forum I participate in, that's probably as good as I can do. As far as the brand having issues, last year I had my 1200 striped clean in half to replace a leaking transmission input shaft seal and counter balance shaft seal, these failures also required a new clutch disk, and on a bike with only 28k miles! That still wrankles me to no end. I've also replaced ABS sensor and now on third fuel strip, with a grand total of 39k miles.

Plenty to pontificate upon this vein, perhaps another thread would be more appropriate.
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Re: Third fuel strip in 600 miles

Post by GTS29640 »

All manufacturer's have their problems but BMW does seem to have more than their fair share. In BMW's defense, when you're designing new things and introducing new technology there are occasional issues that come up in production. As an engineer I know that despite your best efforts to prove out a component in a lab environment that sometimes things happen in the field that weren't anticipated. I think fuel strips probably fall into this category.

How a company reacts to issues is where BMW really falls short. Issues such as driveshafts, final drives, fuel strips and ABS pumps seem to happen year after year without a resolution. You could probably throw clutches and leaking seals in there too.

I'm probably a bit biased here but I don't think failure to act on issues comes from the engineering group. I can tell you that after about 35 years of working in the automotive industry most of the time the engineers know exactly what to do. Unfortunately, the solution usually involves adding a little more cost to the part itself or a retooling cost. Product or marketing managers then get involved and you can guess what the answer usually is.
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Re: Third fuel strip in 600 miles

Post by deilenberger »

Newportcycle wrote:Kobe22,
Don't disagree with your position, the brand suffers from numerous issues, many of which are self inflicted right in the engineering office. I have done about the only thing available to me to do, I have the strip replaced each and every time it fails, I also get my dig's in on every internet forum I participate in, that's probably as good as I can do. As far as the brand having issues, last year I had my 1200 striped clean in half to replace a leaking transmission input shaft seal and counter balance shaft seal, these failures also required a new clutch disk, and on a bike with only 28k miles! That still wrankles me to no end. I've also replaced ABS sensor and now on third fuel strip, with a grand total of 39k miles.

Plenty to pontificate upon this vein, perhaps another thread would be more appropriate.
Actually - you haven't done all you can. You didn't mention going to the NHTSA/DOT website and filing a report of the fuel strip failures. The number of failures reported is the reason BMW extended a warranty on the part (a cheap way of handling it since the manufacturer of the part is likely covering the replacement cost). What really needs to be done before the 12 year warranty on them starts expiring shortly is - force BMW into doing a recall using a new design. There is a thread somewhere that a chap posted where he installed a float type sensor and made up a matching circuit to make it work with the bikes electronics (that are expecting the output from a resistive heated strip.) If he could do it - BMW could do it - they just haven't been motivated.

How to motivate them - force it to a recall. MANY other brands have done recalls for exactly the same issue - faulty fuel level sensors of various types. BMW cars have done recalls for exactly the same issue. It IS a safety issue. If you run out of fuel in the wrong spot at the wrong time serious injury or death could be the result.

Don't just bitch about it on forums. DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!

Here is what I posted on the BMW-MOA forums in a survey on fuel strips (and it was copied from an early posting HERE):
I wrote:Doing something positive about the fuel strip problem..

On another forum I'm active on, there is a bit of a campaign going to get the fuel strip problem to the attention of the NHTSA - the only people who can coerce BMW into actually solving the problem. Since my 5th strip failed this weekend, I'm somewhat energized to actually fill this out. One of the problems with NTHSA submissions are - they tend to get lost since people pick different failure modes. This was worse on the earlier submission form, at least this one limits the number of systems that can be selected from, and there is a drop-down list of models that appears to include most recent BMW motorcycle models.

The following is what I posted to the other forum (an R1200R specific forum.) Since BMW has announced an investigation into the leaking fuel pump bosses on the recent models with only 24 failures reported, and since BMW announced a recall of several car models due to failing fuel gauges, I think this - done right -might have some chance of success. The trick is getting the attention of someone high enough up in BMW who has the power to say "Fix this NOW."

Here is my posting to the other forum:

Here is what I filled out (after selecting the on-line form found at: https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/VehicleComplaint/) <---- LINK UPDATED 10/3/16

o - VIN: Entered my VIN#
o - VEHICLE: BMW R 1200 R 2007 (this is on the drop down screen once you enter BMW.. it's down a ways.. look for your bike if it's not there use the ones that are there as a pattern to create a new model listing.)
o - APPROXIMATE DATE: I entered the date it first happened (as the instructions say to.)
o - CRASH: No
o - FIRE: No
o - FATALITY: No
o - VEHICLE MILEAGE: I put down the approximate mileage it first happened at
o - SPEED: I put down 65 for good luck.
o - AFFECTED PARTS: FUEL/PROPULSION SYSTEM <-- this is the important one. This is how the complaints get lost.
o - TELL US WHAT HAPPENED: Fuel gauge stopped responding, leading to running out of fuel while moving. This is a common failure on many bike models from BMW from 2005-2013. I have had this happen 5 times so far, and each time the fuel level measuring strip in the fuel tank was replaced. This is an unsafe condition since loss of engine power from running out of fuel can be quite dangerous on a motorcycle.

I then filled in my personal info.

My suggestion - if you've experienced the failure - take 10 minutes to fill in the form... it might just help, and it can't hurt. Fell free to ignore this if it doesn't seem reasonable to you.. and I have no delusions about getting a "Friend of the Marque" for posting this up.. If anyone wants to point the K bike forum (of models that used the fuel strip) to this post, please feel free to.
Will it work? It worked with Porsche.. (Campaign to replace bolts that break in the engine causing the engine to grenade..) The trick is to make it more uncomfortable for them NOT to fix it. They need motivation - the idea of a mandatory (government forced) recall is the motivation that works. If they do a "voluntary" recall - it looks as if they had the idea and are doing it to protect their customers. Mandatory looks like Chevy and their ignition locks - that's ugly publicity.

It takes 10 minutes. It could save your life. WHAT are you waiting for. Do it now before you forget!
Don Eilenberger - NJ Shore
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Re: Third fuel strip in 600 miles

Post by Newportcycle »

Don,
At the urging of someone here, I filled out the recall notice after the first one failed three miles from the dealers door, several years ago. It felt like it had no impact and was forgotten until I read your reminder.

Gary, I understand that management sets the culture of an organization, and doing so, can give one department more sway over product decisions than another. When those decisions effect quality it can have disastrous results on the most hard won thing any brand has, its reputation. I to have dealt with marketing folks, now there's a squirrelly bunch of coconuts, so much so IMO to let them decide anything short of what to order for lunch let alone design/pricing decisions is a little reckless. Now that said, someone decided that the fuel strip was ready to go, the sealed bearing in an oil filled gear case was good to go, output shaft splines that needed lubrication every xx,xxx miles would be ok, do not ride notice on factory new RT's, fork tubes separating on factory new GS's. Maybe engineering was overruled I don't know.
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Re: Third fuel strip in 600 miles

Post by deilenberger »

Newportcycle wrote:Don,
At the urging of someone here, I filled out the recall notice after the first one failed three miles from the dealers door, several years ago. It felt like it had no impact and was forgotten until I read your reminder.
This is one of those things where the "mass" of the complaints filed makes a difference. If NHTSA only sees a few complaints - it doesn't rise to the level where they'll take action. If they see a large number of complaints, and an increase in numbers that continues over a period of time - then they'll start an "Investigation" - when the investigation is started - the first thing they do is ask the manufacturer for the numbers they have for the problem frequency. The investigation starting usually kicks it up in priority at the manufacturer's to someone who wants to tamp down the bad publicity a forced recall can cause.

If we can get enough people to report the failures - due to a campaign (which was successful) - for another manufacturer - I know a few people in NHTSA and I could ask them to take a look at it. In the case of the successful campaign - it resulted in the recall of 17,000 vehicles in the US for repairs costing from $1,200 to $36,000 per vehicle. The manufacturer's name starts with P..

Those of us who own these bikes paid extra for the fuel-gauge OBC setup (it was an option.. most came with it..) and we haven't gotten what we paid for. I get mad about things like that. Squeaky-wheel/oil sort of thing - so I'd suggest reporting each and every failed fuel strip. I have about 9 on record now.. (between 2 bikes.)
Don Eilenberger - NJ Shore
2012 R1200R - I love this bike!
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