Final Drive Oil - Change Frequency

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Newportcycle
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Final Drive Oil - Change Frequency

Post by Newportcycle »

Folks,
Wanted to pass along my latest experience with my final drive oil. This is the second change since I began doing my own service. Both times I've found a nice milkshake colored oil in the final drive case. I've now decided to change this oil every 6k with the engine oil. Before folks panic, I tend to ride through some very extreme weather at times, probably against better judgement, and I believe if your going to do the same, this is something to be mindful of. My latest trip I spent the better part of 14 hours in driving rain and sleet, like wise last year returning from my cross country jaunt, I encountered similar conditions and I believe this to be the cause of the contamination. It is obviously something in the case venting system that's allowing the moisture in. I'm not going to bash BMW, nor do I believe there is any long term issue with the final drive because of it, as the oil removed was slippery as gorilla snot (not that I'm intimately familiar with gorilla snot, and that's hardly a scientific examination) so please don't jump in here and start ranting, I fully understand the ramifications of contaminated lubricants.

I use an extra 6 oz of oil each time, filling the case, installing the screws lightly and rotating things by hand, then drain this oil and refill with new. The drive seems smooth with no catching or unusual movement. And doing this service myself only takes 20 minutes and is very inexpensive.

Keep an eye out.
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Re: Final Drive Oil - Change Frequency

Post by mogu83 »

Just for curiosity what kind of oil are you using. We both understand that answering this you will be opening yourself to multiple suggestions from 'experts' that you are destroying your machine by not using the brand that they use.

Reason I ask is I've been using the Beemer magic stuff, but I'm thinking of switching to a Redline product. I have 120,000 on the drive and did change the crown bearing at 40K. No major reason for changing I just like the Redline stuff and have run two drives over 100,000 using the stuff.
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Re: Final Drive Oil - Change Frequency

Post by deilenberger »

Actually - I don't think the milkshake looking stuff is from moisture. I've noted it also on my final drive. I think it's grease from the bearings. The bearings aren't perfectly sealed, and some oil is going to work it's way into the races and tend to wash out the grease. That's not a bad thing - the oil makes a fine lubricant for the bearings. The only bearing that doesn't see oil is the main crown bearing, and that's the one that most often fails. It lives outside the oil filled housing and must rely on the grease in it to lubricate it.

My '07 when it got the 600 mile service looked like that also, but once changed the oil stayed clear. I'm guessing those bearings were even less well sealed. It's just taking a while with the '12 bike to flush them out.

I'll be changing mine again before taking off for California - and will be using the Castrol XO-SF stuff spec'd for the drive. Not that I think it makes a big difference - since the most common failure point (crown bearing) never sees the oil anyway. Probably any 80-90 GL4/5 should work just fine IMHO.

BTW - just to avoid upsetting Harry - I really don't give a sh!t what oil you use - it's your bike - do what you want with it.
Don Eilenberger - NJ Shore
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Re: Final Drive Oil - Change Frequency

Post by Newportcycle »

You could be right Don, dammed sure looks like water contamination, but without testing no way to be absolutely sure. There is no play in the bearings at all, but at 32k I wouldn't expect any just yet. As for oil, I use Mobil 1 synthetic 75w90, seems that it test's pretty well and is easy to find and inexpensive relative to performance. If I can find a source I may change to Amsoil, both gear oil and engine oil, really like their products, and their performance is right up there. So, for now observe, document, and wait.

Thanks for the reply's.
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Re: Final Drive Oil - Change Frequency

Post by GTS29640 »

I'm not sure what you mean by milkshake colored but when lower units on outboard motors get a little water in them (which isn't uncommon) they appear brown in color. So if you're talking about chocolate milkshakes maybe it is water. If you still have the used oil put it in a glass jar for a few days. The water will separate out and you'll see it on the bottom.
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Re: Final Drive Oil - Change Frequency

Post by sykospain »

Harry said : - "...so please don't jump in here and start ranting..."

Rant - Moi ? ? Never.....
This is the list of people I'd trust with my bike
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Re: Final Drive Oil - Change Frequency

Post by Newportcycle »

GTS29640 wrote:I'm not sure what you mean by milkshake colored but when lower units on outboard motors get a little water in them (which isn't uncommon) they appear brown in color. So if you're talking about chocolate milkshakes maybe it is water. If you still have the used oil put it in a glass jar for a few days. The water will separate out and you'll see it on the bottom.
Sorry should have been more specific, more like a gray vanilla milkshake. I'll get a photo if it happens again.
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Re: Final Drive Oil - Change Frequency

Post by David R »

I had a similar problem First Final drive oil change, it looked like mud, and maybe it had water. After that change it was pretty good. A couple times it looked like it had water, so I am more careful when I power wash the bike. No more problems.

I developed a leak around 50K miles. I ended up replacing the big bearing and seals. When I put it together, I checked gear alignment with white lead (paste) to make sure it was OK. Next oil change looked like milky mud. Now I know why the first one looked that way. They probably use the same stuff to check gear alignment. (mine was textbook perfect pattern)

AND no leaks since.

I change FD oil every tire change.

David

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Re: Final Drive Oil - Change Frequency

Post by deilenberger »

David - when you replaced the seal and bearing, was it a wet bearing? IE - behind the seal?

And due to this thread - I actually DID change the oil today. What IDIOT spec'd an allen-head fill plug and a torx drain plug? That's gotta be some serious engineering dumbness. Make the two plugs use the same damn tool.

Anyway - what came out looked fine. A tiny bit darker than what was going in - but no sign of any gray mush - so I'm guessing all the bearing or assembly grease has now been washed out. That's the second time I've changed it. First time it came out gray and muddy looking, despite it having been serviced by a dealership who claimed to have changed the oil at the 600 mile service. If I had to guess - my WAG is they didn't actually change it (or the transmission which came out looking the same.)
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Re: Final Drive Oil - Change Frequency

Post by David R »

YES the "big" bearing runs in the same oil as the rest of the FD, no seals on the bearing. There is a replaceable wear ring on the shaft for the inner seal. I had to get a new one.

Zero problems. I had a trip to Bennington VT with pillion and bags full, 700 miles some on Expressway. No leaks.

Life is good.

David
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Re: Final Drive Oil - Change Frequency

Post by Newportcycle »

David, glad to hear all's well.

I've completed another 6k service since last posting in April, all clear this time. Well to be specific, oil was all oil this time, not an emulsion of some type and there was some discoloration, as the oil was slightly browner than original. These last 6k only one part of one day was in driving rain, balance was just plain hot to National Rally and back.
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Re: Final Drive Oil - Change Frequency

Post by winkeldc »

David R wrote:I had a similar problem First Final drive oil change, it looked like mud, and maybe it had water. After that change it was pretty good. A couple times it looked like it had water, so I am more careful when I power wash the bike. No more problems.

I developed a leak around 50K miles. I ended up replacing the big bearing and seals. When I put it together, I checked gear alignment with white lead (paste) to make sure it was OK. Next oil change looked like milky mud. Now I know why the first one looked that way. They probably use the same stuff to check gear alignment. (mine was textbook perfect pattern)

AND no leaks since.

I change FD oil every tire change.

David

2012 R1200R
How bad of a job is replacing the crown bearing? With having to tear that apart, and thinking I should just replace all the bearings in the drive to avoid another cancelled trip, am I better off getting the whole thing rebuilt by someone? I saw mention of Tom Cutter in PA, has anyone dealt with him?

I was on a trip through upper Michigan last week and I think I lost the bearing, at the least. I had the wheel flange recall last July at 35k, and no noted issue with the final drive. I am only at about 41k now. Free play at 12 and 6 went from nothing 1100 miles before (I checked before I left) to beyond noticeable, I could hear and feel it click from side to side after we (two up loaded riding) felt the vibration start. When we got to safe place, I noticed grease spatter around the hub assembly and on the rotor attachment bolts. We ended up transporting the bike back home because I couldn't find a "certified" dealer anywhere near where we were and roadside assistance was less than useless trying to tow us 6 hours to what they considered to be the nearest certified dealer. I will say, I have always been skeptical about using a Uhaul box truck to transport a bike, but other than being inefficient, it did the trick nicely. I am hoping it's just the crown bearing and I didn't mess anything else up.

With respect to the grease I was seeing, I looked at the part film and it appears my seal is behind the bearing, but I saw some discussion about this where it was noted that there was a change in design from sealed to open bearing. I am assuming that's why I am seeing grease on the hub assembly by the attachment points? (I was researching this from the front porch of a B&B we found while waiting for a tow that never came). I do have the separate fill/drain plugs on my final drive (08 R12R).
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Re: Final Drive Oil - Change Frequency

Post by dbrick »

winkeldc wrote:I saw mention of Tom Cutter in PA, has anyone dealt with him?
I have. He is a stand-up guy, and does first-class work.
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Re: Final Drive Oil - Change Frequency

Post by winkeldc »

dbrick wrote:
winkeldc wrote:I saw mention of Tom Cutter in PA, has anyone dealt with him?
I have. He is a stand-up guy, and does first-class work.
Thanks! I just emailed him and received a response. I may pull the drive and have the dealer look at before sending out though because there are a couple problems that could mean a complete drive replacement. Not sure what I'll do in that situation, the bike is not worth spending $2400 on a new unit, but I don't see much options other than getting a horrible trade in and spending $14k on a new bike.

That brings up two questions, has anyone heard of this failure being caused by the wheel flange recall? Has anyone had any luck with getting good will from BMW on this? Well three questions, anyone know of someone near Cleveland, Ohio that can do the work? I have mostly relied on my dealer for help when I get stuck, but would like other options.
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Re: Final Drive Oil - Change Frequency

Post by Newportcycle »

Winkeldc,
How many miles after the flange recall did the problem start? I would push the issue with the repairing dealer, the replacement flange is shrink fit, they could have gotten the components to hot during installation and if your original real crown bearing was a sealed type, ruined one of it's seals.

If it's determined that the crown bearing is at fault, and they refuse to repair it, you could try and fix this yourself, I've seen some video's, IMO with out some training and experience this could be a challenge for certain personality types, you need to be the judge. You can also search EBay for a used unit, there are plenty out there for much less than 2,400 dollars, that could at least get you a running bike for a reasonable trade in value.

Sorry for the canceled trip. Good luck, please keep us informed.
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Re: Final Drive Oil - Change Frequency

Post by David R »

Changing the crown bearing is EASY with a press.

Its a long story.
I had a leak. NO slop in the bearing. SO I ordered the seal and 2 O rings.

Heated and pulled the flange with a puller I made out of a plate with 3 holes using the lug bolts.

I changed the seal, noting the wear ring behind it was not looking good at all. Probably bad originally, no reason for it to go bad. No abrasive in the area.

I put the new seal in. Its a little tricky, the seal has to be lifted over the wear ring from the outside. I used a feeler gauge. This has to be done while pressing the seal in.

Still had a small leak, like I expected, SO i ordered the wear ring and new seal.

Attempt #2. removed the flange and seal. TIG welded bolts to the wear ring and pulled it off. Installed the seal, then pushed the wear ring in using the old one as a driver.

Next I heated the flange and installed it. It did not go on all the way, so I whacked it with a well fitting driver. This did not feel good.

filled it up and drove it 50 miles home. Checked for loose big bearing. It was. No leaks, but I could feel the wheel move for the first time ever. I Effed it up. Simple as that.

Next I ordered a new crown bearing and big O ring.

This time I heated and removed the flange.

I THEN REMOVED THE RING GEAR AND CARRIER FROM THE BIKE. This was easy, just remove the dozen or so torx bolts and tap it off.

Next I pressed the shaft out of the mounting plate using a proper fitting plate with a hole in it.

I Heated the aluminum plate a little. After removing the big snap ring, I removed the old bearing. Using the old bearing as a driver, I easily tapped in the new one.

I installed the seal, and pressed the whole mess back together making sure I pressed on the end of the shaft and flange only, not to screw up the big bearing again.

I used white lead to double check the hypoid gear wear pattern just like I would in a tractor trailer rear end. It was text book.

Installed and filled with oil. Zero problems. I rode 50 miles and changed the oil. this is when it came out milky looking, I just figured it was the white lead.

Works fine, has been 6,000 miles. No leaks no play.

I learned, remove the ring gear to do any work on it.

To the guy that had the flange changed, I can see how it could screw up the crown bearing if not done properly.

I change my FD oil at every tire change.

David
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Re: Final Drive Oil - Change Frequency

Post by winkeldc »

I just dropped the final drive assembly at the dealer that did the flange recall to see what they say. I am not holding my breath. I saw some write-ups about the crown bearing, but pulling the wheel flange may be difficult for what I have in my shop, but we shall see if that becomes necessary after the dealer has a look. I figured for 30 minutes of tech time, I could let them look and see what the problem is.

The problems started about 6k after the flange recall was performed, but who knows when it started going south. I may have been riding on this thing for a few 1000 miles and just got used to the new normal.

I may do the used from ebay route as the last resort to get the bike to running condition for a trade in. I just like this bike too much to give up on her at this point. Thanks for all the feed back and that great write up! I'll check back in when I hear from the dealer.
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