enough on Spline Failures

[Arbee]

You just don't have enough info.

If it looks like a duck...waddles like a duck...swims like a duck...eats like a duck

chances are Mike... its a duck

[MikeCam]

I think it is more like Chicken Little.

[suzuki]

The sky is falling, the sky is falling. Better get rid of it now. Going to get a Kaw. Opps better not my buddy had his cam chain break at 30k. Or maybe a suzuki, but another buddy spun a bearing on the crack at 20k. A HD ? but a freinds clucth failed when he was in Montana and it was a 04. I know I'll give up riding because it might break down 300 miles from home like my truck did last year. Seriously I hope it doesn't happen to me this summer while I'm out west alone. And when I get about 40k on it I'll look into it during the winter. But this wonderful thing called the internet has made a big problem for some turn into a problem for everyone even if they don't have a problem. Almost 600 hundred have read this post (some many of times over) and only 40 or so had anything to say about this topic ? Where are all the failures ? My brother has a 02 trailbazer with a cracked manifold. A guy I work with the samething with a 01. Its all the talk on This GM board he reads but yet the dealership says they never saw one. (big Milwaukee dealership) And GM has no servicebulltain on it. Just a handfull have the problem? Somthings wrong if a few have it, right? And that seems to be true, but again the way it sounds to only a few. I'm glad to hear that some of you with some great mechanical knowledge are digging into it. And I hope you keep posting your findings. But I'm going to keep riding and if it fails on me when I'm 1500 miles from home this summer I'll deal with it then. If Heldge Pedersen worried about his BMW he'd probabley stll be living in Norway (maybe rounding up raindeer )

[CycleRob]

Almost 600 hundred have read this post (some many of times over) and only 40 or so had anything to say about this topic ? Where are all the failures ?

This is hardly an accurate, scientific survey. What if those with failures fixed it, sold it and never came back here? If you go to the R1150RT forum, spline failures there are all too familiar on loaded bikes ridden fast.

Consider this. Why are we NOT talking about the following failures (with pictures):
-- cracked frames
-- cracked/broken mag wheels
-- cracked/leaking fueltanks
-- failed alternators
-- leaking fuelcaps
-- leaking brake calipers
-- blown headgaskets
-- connecting rod failures
-- centerstand collapses

I'll tell you why - - - - There ARE no such failures because they all were properly designed.

.

[Trout]

Seems like a lot of bikes have little issues that have to be dealt with sometimes. I'm only talking about the issues that are known about, documented, photographed, and happen often enough to establish a trend:

The 1990's VFR's had questionable regulator/rectifier units. No big deal, just buy a spare and carry it with you.

The XS650's had plastic swingarm bushings that wore out fast. No big deal, get a set of bronze bushings.

The Evo Harley's had a cam bearing with a plastic cage that sometimes came apart. No big deal, just spend an afternoon and install an upgraded bearing.

The 1990's Ducati's had a clutch slave that was guaranteed to leak. No big deal, buy an aftermarket unit and be done with it.

The R1150 BMW's had a clutch spline issue. This is a big deal. There is no known cause, no known cure, and you cannot carry a spare. The repair is very expensive and might not cure the problem permanently. Most of all, a "Grade A" bike that was purchased for the purpose of wandering far from home can no longer be totally trusted. It can mostly be trusted, but there will always be a little doubt.

[CycleRob]

Trout,

Your post above and the last paragraph in particular, expertly explains the point I was trying to make. Major, core, expensive to repair parts must not ever fail with even the small frequency of the 1150 OilHead's clutch splines.

.

[tkm]

51000 miles and counting no problems.

[jfslater98]

Just turned 15k miles today. It slips out of 6th into 5th on a somewhat regular basis. Today it did not. Last week in one ride it did that 3 times. I have the occasional "false neutral", they seem to be more frequent. I believe it's my shifting technique. Or is it something else?

[daslimpet]

02 R1150R, 48k miles, no spline failure yet.

Though I did have to replace the final drive pivot bearings (the inexpensive little ones, not the big expensive crown bearing) at 42k.

[sweatmark]

This really states the case so well, I had to break my rule about including entire quotes with a follow-up post.



My step-father-in-law is a retired truck mechanic. We sat at the kitchen table two nights ago discussing the R1150 clutch spline problem, reading some of the online hyperbole, and looking at pictures of damaged parts. He asked some interesting questions and provided opinions.

Questions: (I'm paraphrasing)

Has anyone measured the motor/transmission fit tolerances for a larger number of bikes?
Did the clutch and transmission input shaft designs change over time, from the earliest R1100 oilheads through the R1150s?
Did the clutch operation system (cable versus hydraulic) change over the same period?
What changes in engine torque accompanied the upgrade from R1100 to R1150?
What was the frequency of reported issues with the clutch splines for late airhead, early oilhead, and R1150s?
What other R1100/1150 BMW components have received in-place parts design improvements over the bikes' production runs?
How many different clutch part numbers are there for these applications?


Comments:

The lack of pilot bearing/bushing doesn't matter, since those items rarely last long in automotive applications.
Drivetrain fit tolerances should really be known, and likely require special tooling to make good measurements.
Very similar spline wear & destruction was seen on transmission input shafts and clutch hubs in commercial truck applications, when existing components were re-used with motors producing greater torque.
As a result of the above problems, the spline configuration for truck drivetrains moved to higher spline count to provide increased surface area and resistance to shock-loading.
Damping springs in the clutch disk would surely help.
The partial engagement and cantilever arrangement of the R1150 clutch hub and transmission input shaft, beacuse of the too-short input shaft length, is "CRAP".
The aftermarket transmission input shaft out of Canada is the right idea, but might not be the solution.
Lubricating the splines of a dry clutch is a bad idea: clutch friction material will stick to the grease and create abrasive slurry, accelerating wear.
Most commercial truck splines are fit dry, without any lubrication.
You can machine the transmission input shaft using harder material (and the clutch hub too), but those changes probably won't cure the disease.
Changing from cable- to hydraulic-operated clutch probably hurt the rider's ability to detect spline wear.
There's no question that operator and drivetrain history (specifically the number and severity of clutch engagements) have a direct impact on this type of wear.
The clutch diaphragm spring fingers should be checked for signs of uneven wear.
If the spline pattern, hub/input shaft length, and "bellhousing" fit are designed correctly, this part of the drivetrain should NEVER be a concern.

After learning that the R1150s had been out of production for a few years, he guessed that BMW would officially ignore the spline issue alltogether, and suffer some losses to its loyal customer base. BMW should have quietly revised the input shaft and clutch hub designs as upgrade parts when the problem first arose, likely due to greater power output of the R1150 motor and use of already-on-the-shelf components that worked OK for the R1100s. Finally, he was confident that the aftermarket will find a good solution for the problem, just as it has for similar automotive issues.

He's going to help me dig into the drivetrain of the Roadster next winter. That should be an enlightening experience.

[Arbreacames]

I think it is more like Chicken Little.

Mike, here's a cheap Rockster on eBay with an acknowledged "clutch" problem. Sounds like chickenlittle to me. I bet you can diagnose it too from 1000 miles away...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/BMW-R115 ... 0228169925&

[Lobo1625]

Sweatmark,
Great writeup, and glad to see a few other people are giving this serious thought.

As I posted on one of the other Spline threads, the hardness of the original clutch disk is only 22rch. Talking with one of the clutch manufacturer's I've contacted in regards to producing an after market clutch disk yielded some more information. The hardness of the center hub that this manufacturer uses on solid-hub (non-sprung) disks is 32-37rch. Their opinion as a professional clutch manufacturer is the 22rch was too soft for a solid clutch hub application.

I'm sincerely hoping that this manufacturer can produce a replacement disk at a reasonable price for those of you who would like the peace of mind of an updated disk that will help prevent (Notice I didn't say cure) the spline wear many have experienced. An increased hub length would increase the splines on the shaft closer to the transmission and would certainly help. I also think that a re-engineered shaft would help as well and a combination of the two could eliminate this problem....er issue all together.