Ergonomics and the BMW R1200R

[Mark]

I have read many threads on this forum over the past 12 - 18 months and the three topics that are always close to the top and obviously close to peoples hearts and minds are -

- Turn Signals / Indicator Controls
- Screens
- Seats

I wanted to add my 2c worth about the first two and I won't touch the seat issue because I love the standard seat and I have nothing to add to the discussion there.
Regarding the first two however, people have very valid concerns and it is always of great interest to me to understand what others feel about the bike that I selected. Most of us see our bikes as an extension of our selves, our personalities, needs and desires. If it is not perfect, it grinds away at our primary decision to align with it; some of us will simply support it to the death and some of us will voice our concerns and dissatisfaction, but the vast majority of us simply love our bikes and hope to make it as good as it can be.
May I first say, that I am all for everyone having their say and getting valuable feedback from other members of the forum, but I am still left a little confused about many of the conclusions for each thread/subject.

Turn Signals / Indicator Controls - many riders find these confronting, different, or simply difficult to use. My background includes ergonomic design in the product and mechanical design disciplines and I have my particular take on the BMW (traditional) control layout.
1. The design is certainly different to the majority of bikes. That's obvious.
2. It is (in itself) more intuitive with respect to left control for left turn and right control for right turn, when there is no learnt behavior to overcome.
3. The cancel control (like the horn) is challenging at first for most riders until you understand or stumble across the fact that it is not required to make a formal push button action but rather a roll of the side of the thumb to activate the switch. I'll expand on this later in my blurb.
4. The overall ergonomics of the design is compromised by two main factors. The first is the mechanical styling of the design/layout and the second is the scale/size. The styling and underlying mechanical design has compromised the layout from an ergonomics standpoint, such that it is not as "friendly" as it could be. However the fundamental issue is the scale/size of the control clusters. They suit larger hands.
The smaller the hands, the more the rider is required to make more fundamental rather than subtle adjustments to hand orientation in order to activate the signal cancel control (and horn likewise). In the case of the signal cancel, this can lead to a conflict with the control of the throttle and brake which is what most riders focus on when discussing the initial experience with BMW's arrangement. As I mentioned earlier - it is important to familiarise yourself with the use of your thumb in a rolling side action rather than moving the end of you thumb directly onto the control and using it as a formal push button.

Having said all of this - I would question why it is necessary to have the cancel control at all.
Why not remove this third control and have the left and right switches act as their own cancel controls? If it is flashing - just push it again to cancel. The same logic that makes it intuitive to have the left for left turns etc. etc. applies as a cancel philosophy. Likewise cancelling the hazard flashers which are engaged by pressing both simultaneously, would be cancelled by pressing both simultaneously also. This would also address the auto cancel issue where it is sometimes prudent to cancel and restart the indicator when making a multiple left or right succession of turns. You would simply double press the appropriate control to stop and restart the indicators.
This doesn't cure the ergonomics issue with the horn control but that is another subject.

Screens - This is a naked / urban style motorcycle. Although I understand the desire to have a level of protection from wind and the other elements, it must be understood that there is no "simple fix" here. This bike was not designed to provide the aerodynamics and shielding of a fully or even partially fared touring bike. The notional protection provided by the larger screen offered by BMW is at best an attempt to placate those who must have a screen. As many of those who have attempted to apply after market screens will attest - they are at best a minor improvement but I would suggest that they in fact provide minimal protection and limited noise reduction. The relationship of the screen angle, height and geometry to the size and posture of the rider is a fine balance that will never provide a universal solution and will always detract from the original design intent.
The fact that so many riders/owners of the R1200R crave a screen is more a reflection of the absence of an R1200ST from the range.
I for one have never seen a screen (other than the BMW tinted sports screen) that looks like it is part of the overall design of the bike. Up to 90km/h this provides some protection befitting a naked bike.

Bring on an R1200ST for 2011 that does not look like some Frankenstein experiment gone wrong and I for one would look to trade my beloved R12R in the blink of an eye.

[deilenberger]

Mark,

I'll be snipping a bit for brevity (whoever that is.. )

Turn Signals / Indicator Controls - many riders find these confronting, different, or simply difficult to use. My background includes ergonomic design in the product and mechanical design disciplines and I have my particular take on the BMW (traditional) control layout.
1. The design is certainly different to the majority of bikes. That's obvious.

Not as different as many make out - different from most, but Harley Davidson uses a 2 button turn-signal setup.

2. It is (in itself) more intuitive with respect to left control for left turn and right control for right turn, when there is no learnt behavior to overcome.

And I think the learnt behavior IS the real challenge here. It took me a long time to stop trying to brake with the left foot and shift with the right when I switched over from 70s Brit bikes. Same sort of thing with the turnsignals. The real problem is when you have one of each. I think that presents a real challenge - it did when I had Brit street bikes and Japanese dirt bikes.. did some really wild shifting and braking due to learned behavior (or learned response.)

Snippage..

Having said all of this - I would question why it is necessary to have the cancel control at all.
Why not remove this third control and have the left and right switches act as their own cancel controls? If it is flashing - just push it again to cancel. The same logic that makes it intuitive to have the left for left turns etc. etc. applies as a cancel philosophy.

This is the scheme HD uses, and the scheme that Kisan added to the R11xx signal flasher module they made. It was useful and intuitive. I would suggest the cancel button remain, since I found myself using it on occassion when I had the Kisan module on my R1150RS.

Since all the modules on the R12 bikes are programmable I believe - this could be added with a software change. No hardware would be required. I rather doubt if BMW will bother since they have moved on to more "standard" switch designs - with the exception of a few bikes like the 2010 R12R..

More snippage

Screens - This is a naked / urban style motorcycle. Although I understand the desire to have a level of protection from wind and the other elements, it must be understood that there is no "simple fix" here. This bike was not designed to provide the aerodynamics and shielding of a fully or even partially fared touring bike. The notional protection provided by the larger screen offered by BMW is at best an attempt to placate those who must have a screen. As many of those who have attempted to apply after market screens will attest - they are at best a minor improvement but I would suggest that they in fact provide minimal protection and limited noise reduction. The relationship of the screen angle, height and geometry to the size and posture of the rider is a fine balance that will never provide a universal solution and will always detract from the original design intent.
The fact that so many riders/owners of the R1200R crave a screen is more a reflection of the absence of an R1200ST from the range.

Perhaps. Perhaps not.

I did consider an ST before the R12R, but they weren't available new, the ones that were available had wizzy brakes or no ABS, and the front end was just too hard for me to get my head around. When I saw the R12R at the NYC moto show intro - it immediately became the "next" bike for me, and thoughts of the ST were gone.

I for one have never seen a screen (other than the BMW tinted sports screen) that looks like it is part of the overall design of the bike. Up to 90km/h this provides some protection befitting a naked bike.

Bring on an R1200ST for 2011 that does not look like some Frankenstein experiment gone wrong and I for one would look to trade my beloved R12R in the blink of an eye.

I actually wouldn't. The ST riding position doesn't suit my stomach (as in the stomach would be in the way..) I also like being able to see through the R12R, something none of the other BMWs with the exception of the X bikes and GS manage. It's a case of less=more, but if I want more, I can easily add just the more I want. And that's what I've done. I don't want lowers. I do want some wind protection (and the amount changes with the seasons - as do my shields) and I don't want a lot of expensive plastic. The R12R works for me - about how it came out of the box, and about how I have it outfitted now. If I was only using it for urban riding - the shield would be off, the GPS would be off, the bags stay on, the tankbag is maybe. I use it for a mix of urban, day-riding and touring. It does all of these well with a few accessories.

[xprof]

I submit that there are (at least) two reasons to buy a "naked" bike:

1) To ride it naked, all the time.

2) To use it as a platform for adding just those features that you want, and removing them as your mood changes.

Both work for me; I love my "R"!!!

[websterize]

Having said all of this - I would question why it is necessary to have the cancel control at all.
Why not remove this third control and have the left and right switches act as their own cancel controls? If it is flashing - just push it again to cancel.

I had the same question during the first few hundred miles of riding. With newer BMW cars, pushing the turn-signal stalk a second time cancels the signal. But 5,000 miles into the R12R, pushing the cancel button after a turn is just muscle memory. I don't think about it anymore.

[tobes]

It's taken me a long time to get used to the BMW turn signals having come from a Jap bike but I've got the hang of them now. My problem with the signals isn't the button layout, it is the self-canceling program. The signals always seem to cancel when I don't want them to. The R12R is my daily commuter, as well as my weekend canyon carver, and trying to cross multiple lanes on the 101 fwy during rush hour traffic can be difficult with these signals. I would prefer having either no self-canceling program or making it so that hitting a signal a second time would reset the self-canceling program.

I usually end up with an R12ST as a loaner when I take my R12R in for servicing. I'm very happy to get my R12R back at the end of the day. Even if the R12ST weren't ugly as sin, the ergos are all wrong for me. Plus the extra weight of the fairing makes the bike not as flickable. The R12R in its natural state, no bags, no shield, just bare bones, is quick and agile and a joy to ride.

[celticus]

I have been using the 'Different" BMW turn signal layout for a while now and am well used to it but if I were buying a new bike and had the choice of "regeular layout" and "BMW Layout" I would pick regular. My son has a Suzuki SV650 and those controls fall right to hand although I am not as used to them.

Mark

[Dan-A]

Turn Signals / Indicator Controls - many riders find these confronting, different, or simply difficult to use. My background includes ergonomic design in the product and mechanical design disciplines and I have my particular take on the BMW (traditional) control layout.
1. The design is certainly different to the majority of bikes. That's obvious.
2. It is (in itself) more intuitive with respect to left control for left turn and right control for right turn, when there is no learnt behavior to overcome.
3. The cancel control (like the horn) is challenging at first for most riders until you understand or stumble across the fact that it is not required to make a formal push button action but rather a roll of the side of the thumb to activate the switch. I'll expand on this later in my blurb.

As mentioned, Harley's have a left and right switch, once for on, again to cancel. On my Road King the turn signal (TS) indicators are on the gas tank. As one of the few Harley riders that wear a full face helmet I cannot see them without looking down.

The consequence here is if the TS has already turned off and I hit the button a second time to cancel it I am effectively turning them on again, which could get me killed if a car turns in front of me thinking I was turning. If the TS is still on and I hit it again to turn it on, I am effectively turning it off with a similar consequence.

So for multi-button approaches, I have to say I like the BMW scheme better as there is no confusion as to what you will get when you push a button. Left, right or cancel.

I also ride a Japanese bike, and I have to say, one switch is easy, simple and clear, and less expensive to manufacture. If it were up to me, they would all have the single switch Japanese style. Even BMW is apparently rethinking this as the K1300's have a Japanese style switch.

That being said, I can get used to anything, it is the changing bikes that screws me up. It seems like everytime I hit the left blinker on the Goldwing, I scare the crap out of myself by honking the horn , and then remember where the TS switch is.

[Mollygrubber]

Ours self-cancel?

I can hear the snickers from the peanut gallery...

Did someone just say 'what a maroon'?

I guess I'm trained to turn them off quickly, so I never noticed - and apparently didn't read the owner's manual as carefully as I thought...

[mogu83]

[quote="Dan-Atank.
That being said, I can get used to anything, it is the changing bikes that screws me up. It seems like everytime I hit the left blinker on the Goldwing, I scare the crap out of myself by honking the horn , and then remember where the TS switch is.[/quote]

That's familar, the other bike I ride is a Valkyrie and every now and then (as hard as it is to imagine) I forget what bike I'm on and get the Beep when making a left turn.

[spenserj87]

My 2 cents...

Turn signals are all what you get used to - I don't think about them at all and it is very intuitive - and I had a Kisan module on my old bike - but I like the sureness of the dedicated cancel switch. The only time it is an issue is when I switch rides with my friend who has a SV650...not intuitive for him.

Now, if you were talking about the horn button, that's a different story - I think we are all on the same page on that one.

As for screens, I'm a huge fan of my Cee Bailey simply because I can switch it in 2 minutes. For most of the year, I have the small sport screen and that is fine for taking a bit off me. In the winters months I use the Cee Bailey more...and if I'm slabbin' it for a few hundred miles, I might also use the Cee Bailey. It functions fine - I just think it makes the bike look ugly - not sure I've seen any after market for the R12 that fits aesthetically.

[Dan-A]

Another thought, BMW automobiles have a turn signal stalk like any other car.I wonder why they do something different on their motorcycles but follow conventional wisdom on their cars? Is that mandated by the Feds?

[TAL2GK]

I am one of the fortunate ones that have only ever owned BMW motorcycles (having just recently purchased my 2nd in my 10 years of riding). Because of this, I am uniquely qualified to answer the question of intuitivity (intuitiveness?) of the signals. Well, not having to unlearn anything helped, but the layout really came very easy to me. I do have large hands, but even if they were smaller I can only see the logic in pushing left to go left and pushing right to go right.

Recently I had a chance to ride a Ducati Monster for a day and the one-button setup had me as confused as those of you who have made the reverse adjustment. I was wise enough to figure that hitting the button in the left direction and a right direction would ellicit the appropriate response, but I was shamefully unaware of what to do to cancel my indicator. Through more than half of my ride, I would push the button in the opposite direction in an attempt to cancel ... only to hit the reverse indicator instead of cancelling. I may be a dummy, but typically I'm pretty good at picking up on things. Finally, I figured there had to be a better way and tried PUSHING the button in to cancel the indicator ... and WHATTAYOUKNOW?!

So, I guess my point is ... whatever you learn first is the one that sticks with you. The Bimmer setup is completely logical to me.

[AncientMariner]

The turn signals are the same as they are on Harleys and on my K75, I guess I don't know any better, but I like them just fine.

The factory low comfort seat works fine, even after a few 8 hour days.

Mark wrote about the various shields that they "are at best a minor improvement ." Well my K75 was a naked bike, very similar in style to the R1200 R. After an agonizing search of windshields, I installed the OEM shield, which I have always found to be ugly... However, it works. Good protection from wind, buffeting, noise, and rain up to the ton (and that's all I'll admit to). I never even bothered with earplgs because there was no noise to filter out. On my R12 earplugs are an absolute necessity. I don't understand why the BMW Touring shield for the R12 doesn't work as well as the OEM K75 shield works.

And thanks but no thanks, I don't want an RT, RS or ST style fairing. I just want a windshield that does its job.

[xprof]

Mariner: So many of us with larger shields have had good results from tilting the shield back that I strongly suspect increasing the tilt will work for you. Try this, just to see: loosen the upper screws holding the mounting bracket enough to disengage the bracket from the lower mount completely. Then try riding it, first gently, then at increasing speeds. As the speed mounts, the air will push the shield back more and you can see if the airflow smooths for you. I've tried it up to 100mph, briefly, without any problem. If increasing the backward tilt works for you, then try either spacing out the bottom mount or fabricating new bottom mounts. And let us all know if it works, or equally if it doesn't.

[Mollygrubber]

[daveyator]

I can't resist so here are my ergonomic thoughts. My first BMW was the 99 R11R. The first 10min on that bike and knew I would have it for a long time (10yrs). Also I wondered why you couldn't push on and push off each respective turn signal instead of using that hard to get to cancel switch. The seat was GOD AWFUL even being adjustable. The hand grips were and are the best I've ever had. I lived with these items good and bad because the bike is a BMW I assume things are the way they are because of german engineering. But as we all know engineers miss real life things from time to time (seat!). Now comes the R12R. Power, handling, weight all better. Turn signals better because of self cancel but still not intuitive. Seat actually better (yes better) but still terrible. Handgrips actually worse in that they'er normal now. Having put on a mayer seat I've discovered the seat is way more comfortable but now is also too high and almost too wide. My non BMW Ztechnic screen was actually ok for me until the seat made me a little high and put me in the slipstream. So the bike out of the box from Berlin is what it is, a tight smart german motorcycle. If you add non BMW parts you run the risk of having non BMW results. However if BMW hears us they may fix a shortcoming in a BMW kind of way (the "comfort" seat) as an example. Ultimately each rider gets to decide how german for lack of a better description they want their motorcycle to be.

[celticus]

Ours self-cancel?

I can hear the snickers from the peanut gallery...

Did someone just say 'what a maroon'?

I guess I'm trained to turn them off quickly, so I never noticed - and apparently didn't read the owner's manual as carefully as I thought...

Bugs Bunny used to say "What a maroon!"

Also please explain the picture you posted of the addition to the windshield bracket. If you explained it elsewhere I did not see it. I am suffering through some sort of wicked virus and my attention to detail is not THAT good even when I'm at my best.

Mark

[Mollygrubber]

Yes, that was a Bugs Bunny reference (check out my tagline re. growing up).

In addition, "I knew I shoulda toined left at Albekoikee".



The picture was in response to Mike's (xprof) post about tipping the shield back - I copied (well, stole is more accurate) his methodology for doing that, and felt a picture may be as inspiring to others as it was to me!

[deilenberger]

The picture was in response to Mike's (xprof) post about tipping the shield back - I copied (well, stole is more accurate) his methodology for doing that, and felt a picture may be as inspiring to others as it was to me!

You just KNOW Wunderlich is going to offer these machined from billet aluminum for about $125... If they hear about it..

[redwing]

Given that I'm a new rider with limited experience my two cents is probably worth that ... two cents.
Seat ... I like it. My back tightens up around an hours riding, a short 10 minute rest and I'm good for another hour. I had a problem in my hip where a muscle would knot-up but just relaxing took care of that.

Shield... Soon to buy one ... Parabellum likely because of cost and I like the looks. And in time a summer shield also.

Turn signal controls... Turning on the turn signal is easy. Turning off the turn signal is difficult. I have always worn gloves and feeling the control is muted. Reaching for the cancel switch often causes me to twist the throttle some. I'm working on using the cancel switch without twisting the throttle any. I like the idea of just pressing the turn switch again to cancel the signal. I think a thicker control (as opposed to the tappered control) for the cancel switch would work better because I have to feel for it.
If BMW Corp. could change the cancel to the turn signal on switch with a software update .. great.

Off Topic Comment
Remember buying a car in one's youth and taking it out to see what it would do.??? I have yet to run through the gears at full throttle... but it's on my list.

Robert