My Clutch Slave Misadventure has become a Spline Disaster!

[awk]

Hello all,
An update on my attempts to remedy my leaking clutch slave cylinder on my 2002 R1150R!

Unable to remove the Clutch pushrod I decided to proceed to a full Spline inspection and now I have my bike to pieces with the ass in the air and the gearbox, swingarm, and final drive on the floor. (Not much trouble really)

Long story short: My splines are nearly toast and I need a new transmission input shaft. Not to mention a new clutch including the pressure plate, friction disk, etc. So my question is what do I do now. I know I can manage the clutch assembly but how hard is it to crack the transmission and replace the input shaft? A call to the local BMW shop revealed that "we haven't done one of those in a long time, I'm not sure we even have the tools anymore".

Any advice out there????
Thanks AWK

[Xdot]

Dude that sucks! But, and not to minimize the annoyance and cost factors here, which are considerable, it is far better than the splines failing catastrophically 500 miles from home in a country where you don't speak the language. Consider yourself, mmm... slightly lucky.

[goomicoo]

It would be easier to source a used trans at this point. Easier than going through shaft replacement IMHO. Hopefully yours is the more common silver color and not the black version!

[kantuckid]

At what k did the splines go?

[AndyRR]

BTDT. Twice. If you search my old posts, I documented my first adventure. You really don't need many special tools to rebuild the trans. You'll need the BMW service manual (the free download one). The part where you measure the length of the input shaft with a dial guage - forget it. If the new shaft length is the same as the old (it will be) you're good to go.
You'll need a non-marring hammer, a non-contact heat guage, and a heat gun or two. If you want to keep the old bearings on the input shaft, you'll need a good-size gear puller.

I inspected my splines at 35k miles and found them ready to fail. Rebuilt trans and rode it. Splines failed completely 20k miles later while trying to keep up with CycleRob on the north GA twisties. 500+ miles from home. I was very fortunate to have been riding with Rob as he gave me and my bike a ride home in his pickup truck. Rebuilt the trans one last time and promptly traded it in.

[iowabeakster]

When the dealer said that they haven't done the job lately and might not have the tools?

He was lying... or trying to be funny...

It's been a far too common issue on all the R1150xx models. As the miles keep adding up, I bet my life that the dealers are doing this job with ever increasing frequency. The question for you is do you pull a shady shyster move and fix it and sell to someone, or fix it and suffer the same fate as AndyRR, or sell it for parts.

Bikes that have this issue, have it again. AndyRR is certainly not the first repeat victim.

I am really sorry to hear this. I Hate being the bad news guy.

[awk]

Well my bike sits in my garage, its ass up in the air. The transmission is in a reputable shop in Charlottesville VA getting a workover. Then it's backe together with a new input shaft and a totally replaced clutch assembly. Supposed to be a fix. Now I'm stuck on this bike till retirement!

[AndyRR]

I've seen a thick washer installed on the clutch to space it towards the transmission and have more complete engagement. The simplest and least expensive possible long term fix I've seen yet. It went between the clutch hub and the clutch.
It is possible that replacing the clutch assy will prevent complete failure in the future, but all these bikes suffer from incomplete engagement when stock parts are used. You can't be certain that the bike is reliable until you fix it, put 15 - 20k miles on it and re-inspect.
If you can get complete engagement, you shouldn't ever have to worry about spline failure again.

[awk]

I'm still waiting for the rebuild transmission. It is done but I can't pick it up till after the holidays.

Spacing the clutch hub out further to increase engagement makes sense as long as this doesn't interfere with something. Has anyone out there actually done this? Seems like you would have to grind off the rivets and apply the spacer and rerivet the hub. Perhaps a clutch reliner could do this.

Also. I was thinking of drilling 3 small holes, before reassembly, spaced 120 degrees apart into the clutch hub to allow greasing with a small grease pin fitting through the starter opening. seems like it might work.

Any thought about this?

[kantuckid]

I am a part of a thread on ADVrider that has this topic going on. Jim Von Baden, among others has done the needle syringe lube several times as ahave a few on MOA forum. I am near to doing it on my r1150r based on age , not k as it's an 03 and people that know more than me say they need lubed before 40k when age is a factor. The trick is to not over lube/wrong place etc. I'm leaning toward a large animal needle as they are easily available. GSAddict on MOA posting built his own syringe-do your own search thise spots as I'm not knowing how to pass on the links. The threads are ongoing recently and extensive other info in them on this whole scene. I will add that Paul Glaves the tech editor and a r1150r rider of many miles sent his off just like you for the shaft job & he does BMW service every day.

[AndyRR]

I'm still waiting for the rebuild transmission. It is done but I can't pick it up till after the holidays.

Spacing the clutch hub out further to increase engagement makes sense as long as this doesn't interfere with something. Has anyone out there actually done this? Seems like you would have to grind off the rivets and apply the spacer and rerivet the hub. Perhaps a clutch reliner could do this.

Also. I was thinking of drilling 3 small holes, before reassembly, spaced 120 degrees apart into the clutch hub to allow greasing with a small grease pin fitting through the starter opening. seems like it might work.

Any thought about this?

I haven't done the spacer, but I with I had thought of it prior to my first rebuild. I think I saw it on the ADV site. There's nothing to interfere, the clutch hub can go pretty far before it hits the transmission or input shaft seal. if you look at your old input shaft, you'll see the unused portion of the splines. That's how much room you have. It's really just a huge screw up on part of the BMW engineers that put this together. That BMW never acknowledged it and fixed it is why I'm riding another brand now.

A clutch reliner should be able to do it no problem. I found a shop in Baltimore that would install a new hub (I supply the hub) and new linings on the BMW clutch for around $50 US. You'll need to have the spacer made, but if you give a decent machine shop the old clutch and the desired thickness of the spacer, it will be a simple job.

[iowabeakster]

The grease holes are a good idea to make maintenance (lubing) an easier task. But, I also think much of the benefit of a spline lube job is to get in there and to CLEAN the old grease out (and dirt and abrasives in the old grease).

I just don't think more frequent lubing is going to make anything last any longer. The problem of stripping splines is usually due to a misalignment between the trans input shaft and the engine crankshaft (consequently showing up in clutch-trans splines). Usually, the failure is not due to lack of lubrication. Here's an old thread (and lengthy one) started by boxermania. I don't know if you've discovered this, but its worth it to look at what he was able to gather after looking at the parts from several people who've had the problem.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=13563&hilit=Clutch+spline+analysis

Also, the idea of a spacer is interesting, as that might make the interface stronger and therefore longer lasting, in theory. I have never heard of anybody doing anything like it.

[AndyRR]

Man, I hate searching this topic on ADV when I have work to do. I haven't found the spacer yet, but I found a lot of talk about either buying a clutch directly from Sachs (they make the OEM) for cheaper and a lot about VW clutches. Go get a big cup of coffee and start here: http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=551097 I haven't even scratched the surface on ADV, but I really gotta get to work....
Seach for "Spline" on bmwsporttouring.com and you'll get 60 pages of results.

I didn't want to say so before, but since iowabeakster said it first - I really don't think that even a once a year lube will correct this issue. I spent MONTHS trying to get a longer input shaft made. I did have offset dowels made and I used them. When July rolled around and my bike was still in pieces (project started in February), I said F*** it and put it back together with OEM parts. Big mistake. Don't do it!

[sweatmark]

Man, I hate searching this topic on ADV when I have work to do.

On vacation this week, so I'd better do my part.

Reference to the Bruno-modified R1150** clutch, using spacers to reposition clutch hub: http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthre ... 14&page=19

Check out Bounty Hunter's post (#275) in which he provides link to smugmug pics of the modified clutch. That particular ADv topic is worth reading all the way through, as it's 100% applicable to R1150R ownership.

Despite all the (mis)information pointing to other causes, I remain convinced that the R1150** clutch spline failure problem is due to the incomplete/cantilevered engagement of clutch hub and transmission input shaft. The clutch hub spacer modification is exactly what I intend to do when I eventually pull apart my Rockster for "inspection".... and I'd add a longer-splined input shaft if such were readily available.

<edit> Looks like clutch housing "truing" is a good idea also! http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=751335

[AndyRR]

Man, I hate searching this topic on ADV when I have work to do.

On vacation this week, so I'd better do my part.

Reference to the Bruno-modified R1150** clutch, using spacers to reposition clutch hub: http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthre ... 14&page=19

Check out Bounty Hunter's post (#275) in which he provides link to smugmug pics of the modified clutch. That particular ADv topic is worth reading all the way through, as it's 100% applicable to R1150R ownership.

Despite all the (mis)information pointing to other causes, I remain convinced that the R1150** clutch spline failure problem is due to the incomplete/cantilevered engagement of clutch hub and transmission input shaft. The clutch hub spacer modification is exactly what I intend to do when I eventually pull apart my Rockster for "inspection".... and I'd add a longer-splined input shaft if such were readily available.

<edit> Looks like clutch housing "truing" is a good idea also! http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=751335

That's it! Thanks. I only had time to skim, but I didn't see a thickness mentioned. I can help with that if needed as I still have my last input shaft lying around somewhere. I don't think there would be a benefit to a longer input shaft if the hub spacer is used. The spacer is just brilliantly simple.

If I read awk's post correctly, he's replacing the entire clutch assy and not just the clutch. I tried to measure the clutch plate runout, but it was difficult to measure and my measurements were crude at best.

[awagnon]

Reference to the Bruno-modified R1150** clutch, using spacers to reposition clutch hub: http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthre ... 14&page=19

I had the splines crap out on both my 2002 RT and my 2004 1150GS. I still have both bikes and each winter pull the transmissions, check the splines and replace what needs replacing. This is the first winter I've actually replaced the entire clutch assembly south of the engine crank shaft based on reports that will "fix" the problem. I have my doubts and would try the Bruno-modified clutch the next time I dive in. I can't find any followup on whether it actually did any good. Anyone have any information?

[mozark]

Here's the link for a longer shaft
http://www.sunshinecoast.ca/bmw/InputShaft.pdf

[awagnon]

Here's the link for a longer shaft
http://www.sunshinecoast.ca/bmw/InputShaft.pdf

I believe that is an old link and the long shaft was never put into production after the first two prototypes. One was installed in a bike with stripped splines and I don't know if they have rechecked them yet after about 40,000 miles. Maybe someone else knows.

[slowtorque]

Just curious how you are getting along on this. I'm just south of Chapel Hill at Jordan Lake. Be happy to stop by and assist at the risk of learning something. I've got a near fully stocked motorcycle service shop here for my own use, so give a shout if you need something. Maybe you've got her all back together by now. Hope so.

[awk]

Finally an update,
I have just this weekend completed the reassembly of my bike with no problems. It fired right up after sitting there since October with its ass in the air. A I mean this beast was in pieces. Here is what I finally did.

* Sent the transmission to Anton Largiader in Charlotesville VA for an input shaft replacement. He replaced all the seals, the shaft bearings, and even drilled a weep hole in the clutch slave housing. Shipped it back to me with all the part to replace the entire clutch assembly from the crankshaft back. Says it is the only way he knows to fix the problem.

* Reassembled as per all the resources available on this site and others. You gotta love the internet!!!! Not one problem really, just followed the good advice here, Did reassemble the entire drivetrain on a bench and installed as a unit. Made a clever cradle with rollers which allowed me to slide the whole thing on alone.

* and of course replaced the clutch slave cylinder

Overall learned a ton about my bike and although I have a love/hate relationship with it, I feel I could tackle anything now,

Thank you all for the help
AWK