Consumer Reports

[jkhomes]

I am sad to see this. It doesn't seem to apply with the experience I have with my R1200R. I would like to see the whole article. One in three owners experiencing a major problem doesn't seem right. Unless that includes fuel strips...

http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/news/co ... liability/

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/motorcycles0513.htm

[Newportcycle]

I am sad to see this. It doesn't seem to apply with the experience I have with my R1200R. I would like to see the whole article. One in three owners experiencing a major problem doesn't seem right. Unless that includes fuel strips...

http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/news/co ... liability/

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/motorcycles0513.htm

I find it hard to believe it's the experience of many owners, sample size and the feedback provided would be interesting to see.

I dont mean to turn this into a fuel strip thread, but ..... you brought it up.

The fuel strip issue is BULL**IT, I cannot understand any reason why this should have gone on as long as it has. I've had several bikes with tank gauges, and to my recollection all my cars had a tank level gauge, and never, never has there been an issue and quite frankly why should there be. Its not as though your inventing the first one ever. Is there a hall of fame somewhere for the most innovative fuel level sending unit that someone is just trying to qualify for? The one thing the Japanese suppliers have learned is that Demming was correct, a TQM approach will eventually beat all competetiors because the end user, a completely satisified customer is your goal. The failure to correct this issue even if its a small one in the grand scheme of BMW engineering issues, presents an image to me, incorrect as it may be, of corporate arrogance which I find highly insulting. Simple engineering issues of which there are satisfactory solutions currently in the market place should be the highest on the list for fixing. That said, the article points to a brand loyalty which the Japanese for all their quality cannot match, this will, IMHO, also leads to managers making decisions in the financial intrest of the company, not the consumer. I have a 2011 R1200R which I purchased new in January, I have 123 miles on it, the fuel strip is already reading incorrectly and I havent even hit the 600 mile service. I'll stop now. Ohh and FYI, my 2001 Sprint ST, 46,000 miles and the fuel gauge works flawlessly.

[hjsbmw]

One out of three sounds a little high, but the problem reports in forums are not that uncommon, not only for fuel strips.
The only problem so far with mine were leaking seals, replaced under warranty at 9k miles, and that is indeed something that never happened to me on a Japanese bike.
Side note: from what I hear, lots of the Japanese sport bike and cruiser riders accumulate 2k-4k miles per year while 10k+ seem more the norm, sometimes dramatically more, for many BMW folks. That doesn't mean things should break, but it elevates the probability.

[David R]

I have 3 BMW in the garage. No major problems in twenty some years. I was not even concerened until I started reading these message boards and saw the drama. SO now I take a little better care of them.

Show me a sport bike with 137,000 miles on it or a 1976 still running with out being restored.

Never did like consumer report since they test drove a car and recomended you NOT buy it because it was difficult to add brake fluid.

I think SOME of the dealers are a big part of the problem.

David

[Karamazov]

I also think BMW owners (in general) tend to be more mature and sophisticated riders. They also pay a premium for their motorcycles. Those factors likely contribute to an increased probability of complaint when issues arise.

[objectuser]

I also think BMW owners (in general) tend to be more mature and sophisticated riders. They also pay a premium for their motorcycles. Those factors likely contribute to an increased probability of complaint when issues arise.

Maybe if we were a bit more sophisticated, we would take our $s elsewhere. Maybe "sophisticated" is a euphemism for "coolaid drinker"? j/k

In any case, I have two in my garage and I think they are great. I've not had any major issues that I haven't caused myself (I'm well known at my dealership for my amateur mechanic work that they subsequently fix for me). I'll buy more. Thus perpetuating the cycle.

Generally, Consumer Reports is pretty good at this sort of thing, but you do need to read what they asked and what they found. And, yes, their reviews tend to be geared toward certain population segments. But it's useful information; just needs to be synthesized a bit to apply to your own situation.

All that said, it would be nice if BMW enhanced their reliability a bit.

[Bob Ain't Stoppin']

My take on consumer reports: They are a good source for info on any subject you know nothing about. If you have any knowledge about the subject at hand, you quickly figure out that consumer reports really doesn't know what they are talking about. For me, that makes evrey thing they say suspect,

[sjbmw]

Japanese bikes have always been more relible that Harley or BMW.

A Toyota Camry or Honda Civic is also more relaible than a BMW 5 series.

Simpler designs with long parts runs vs. aggressive innovation.

(If I got out to my shed, my 84 Honda will start, and my 04 BMW will not.)

[Bill Stevenson]

There are so many facets to a story like this that it is impossible to do more than speculate. Sample size of responses, what questions were asked in the survey and so on are factors that would affect the outcome and we know nothing about any of that from this article. With that said, Motorcycle Consumer News published a much more useful article, so comprehensive that it was spread over two issues, on the experience of the Arizona Highway Patrol several years ago. AHP had a fleet of BMWs, HDs, and Honda STs in service and they reported their costs for repairs, maintenance, warranty experiences, and rider preferences. Honda was best in every category except rider preference, where BMW came in ahead. BMW came in dead last in warranty service, baulking about claims, which were many times more numerous than Honda's. The people who rode them liked Beemers best, though, and that as they say is that.

If you look back at our collective experience in just this forum, you will find more than trouble with fuel strips. Battery life, brake lines, I can't remember them all. I believe my 2008 was subject to 2 or 3 recalls for this or that. But my R1200R is the nicest motorcycle I have ever ridden and I am a million miler and been riding mostly Beemers since 1967. I could not care less if Japanese bikes are less finicky. I know what I like.

[rpoppen]

Why Beemer and Harley riders love their bikes even though they're more expensive and less reliable than Japanese bikes? It's called cognitive dissonance.

[Bob Ain't Stoppin']

It's called cognitive dissonance.

Or perhaps cognitive resonance?

[abambach]

i totally agree with rpoppen, it is about the experience. If Hondas last longer than BMWs or if you like cars, if Toyotas last longer than Ferraris, who cares, it there it the total experience that makes a difference. IMO, it starts with your riding mates, then your bike followed by your experience and if you really care it ends with consumer report with their utilitarian point of view.

[atractaspis]

Statistics mean nothing without giving the full information.. Like how old were the bikes compared, comparable engine sizes, how many miles did the riders actually put on their bike (maybe 1 in 3 BMW riders drive more than 5000 miles a year and the other riders questioned drive 20 miles per year. Lol).

Also, how much maintenance did the different bikes require or do. And another interesting bit of information to decide on reliability would be how many Japanese bikes vs BMW vs Harley have over 100,000 miles on them and are still running?

Hope they come out with more info on this. Just saw the article this morning and decided to wait and see what the details of it are before believing any of the stats.

[jkhomes]

Or perhaps cognitive resonance?

I like the idea of that.

Being somewhat of a fanatic, I was caught off guard by the 1 in 3 statistic. But the point of cutting edge engineering is well taken. The Japanese raised the standards for cars with their tight manufacturing tolerances. If Lucas electric can fix their problems, I bet BMW could too. Back in the day, almost every Porsche had to be rebuilt at the factory when it came off the line.

[sjbmw]

Ride 500 miles on a honda, and then ride 500 miles on a BMW.

The aches you have from the Honda will not go away because of superior reliability stats.

[BoxerSteve]

1 in 3? I have a pretty hard time believing that. I've been riding various BMW motorcycles for about 30 years and they have always been good to me. I've never been left stranded, really I've never had any major problem.

Can't say the same about the one and only Japanese motorcycle I've owned - a '78 Honda CX-500 (don't laugh, it was my first MC). That bike had electrical issues due to poor alternator location, and it was what steered me towards BMW's. A buddy of mine had an R90/6 with 160K miles and he had never had a major problem, nor rebuilt the engine. It impressed me far more than the troublesome CX500, that's for sure. So I sold that POS for $300 and picked up a '78 R80/7 which I rode for 15 years, then sold for more than I paid for it.

So I guess I will be a BMW MC guy for the foreseeable future. I don't care what Consumer Reports says.

[Dr. Strangelove]

And the wailing commences, Say It Ain't So!

We enjoy the particular flavor of this Kool Ade and go into denial or blame it on other user's error. It can't be the marque or Hans or Franz or Ewen or Charlie. We identify with them! We think they are us and we them.
Der ATTGATT with the logo! Wear the cap! Have some more Kool Ade. Let me top you up.

You see it on these forums all the time. Someone gets riled and reports about something-say the fuel strips, or other issue- and rather than consider it is a -- can I say it-- "bad design from BMW," someone teutonicly shouts "Verboten!" It cannot be the bike, it must be the messenger. It can't be the clutch splines, it's the way you shift. It can't be the final drive, hmmm or can it.

Some here and elsewhere drink more deeply of the Kool Ade than others. Example: there was a thinly veiled suggestion not to include the fuel strips in the "major problem" arena? Why not? You know I can't excited about colon cancer; no one I know has it, and if you just eat right you'd never ever get it. Right? How absurd is that?
Head in the sand or up your colon, same thing. Your choice.

I too think that Consumers Reports is not a real gauge for the cognescenti of a particular product, not usually, and they typically report for the masses, looking for things that are not on our short list - like the price of upkeep and, Ummm, "reliability." I guess they are not truly evaluating Wunderlich mud guards, or K bike mirrors or the "great guys at Jerry's BMW in BFE." They would have nothing to add to a "best oil" or "best tire" thread.
For the record, CR does not guide my motorcycle or photo purchases, for or against, but their points can be valid and you ignore them at your peril.

I, also, think the 1:3 is probably high, but 1:7-8 is prob low?

There is a part of me that says I'm glad CR is saying This Emperor Has No Clothes. Maybe NONE of them have clothes. Or maybe their clothes are shabby and worn. We hate that. And what is "major?" Of the two BMW's I've owned one has had major problems that HAVE left me stranded. And Motorrad has done nothing for years and years over multiple models to correct it. Yet, we are told, that "I've never run out of gas," and "Use your odometer."
More Kool Ade?
Those who <ignore> the past are condemned to relive it, and maybe in creative ways.

Now, if Motorrad cared they would take this report to heart. They would read Demming, but he!!, why should they? They don't need to. The Kool Ade they sell, and we buy and defend, has us addicted. It must be us. It can't be Munich.

Open your eyes, they make a fine bike. Better than Honda, maybe not, better than Suzuki, maybe not, Better than Kawa, maybe not. But BMW has The Roundel, and Ewen and Charlie and all those cool videos and the legendary reliability. It's all a fairy tale and good luck on living happily ever after.
And watch your fuel gauge.

What BMW does offer though is bike ergonomics that few/no other manufacturer offers. It offers an engine, the Boxer, that is easy to work on yourself, if you actually do. You can ride one for hundreds of thousands of miles, at least the ones that are old enough to have that kind of mileage on them. The jury is out on the new ones so far.Those are two big advantages, though, and that is the reason the marque remains the gold standard for me, but they are not perfect and it needs to be realized and acknowledged.
my $0.02
John

PS Maybe someone could post the article?

[atractaspis]

DrStrangelove: here is another link http://blog.motorcycle.com/2013/03/26/m ... dont-care/

The article itself is supposed to come out in the April 2013 issue of CR. that's what I want to see.. The actual statistics etc (what I said above). It would be very interesting to see of they do mention what a serious mechanical issue was considered to be and all of that. I have to say my main attraction to BMW was that it was the only bike maker in the US that had the kid of bike I thought I wanted (800st), then I test rode it and didn't think I wanted to pay the money for that bike but still considered it.. Until I rode the R12R. I was in love right away and wanted the bike like no other bike before
I did look at CR for BMW bikes and others were usually higher up.. Depending in what category I looked. BMW was usually the top for touring bikes. After a while I realized I just simply wanted this bike to be the best and was looking for the good stuff about it and ignoring what other bikes were rated high. It was all about how awesome the bike felt to ride and CR now any other opinions seemed to matter anymore. Never found any major issue repeatedly reported for the bike (well except for the fuel strip, but of course I thought that wouldn't happen to me! Ha. We will see).

Love the kool aid for now

[Dr. Strangelove]

Right. Agree w u
I like the kool ade too. I want motorrad to get it right. To do the right thing. The blinders that some have, and we all have them to some degree, prevent some, I think, from seeing that BMW is mortal too. You'll see it over on advrider also.
A friend just reported to me that a fellow rider on the RT forum just had his FIFTH left side cluster installed: the one with the info turn sig cruise control etc. his FIFTH one.
Sounds like a design or QC problem to me.
I don't expect things to be perfect always but design and QC issues that affect safety and reliability and cost of upkeep need to be promptly addressed by any manufacturer of anything. BMW is accountable.

[mogu83]

I guess this is off subject but if I replaced the same component five times (and it wasn't a problem common to the model, ie: fuel strip) I would start to wonder if something else was causing the problem. As long as it's under warranty the dealer (tech) will just get the bike out of the shop. When the warranty is over the customer is at the mercy of the company as to whether they will pay, or the next owner gets stuck with it.