Honda's 125cc GP Bikes

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dallara

Honda's 125cc GP Bikes

Post by dallara »

Well, some folks seem to want this kind of stuff about Honda's, even on a Beemer board, so here goes...

Let's move up the displacement ladder to the next size category of the GP world championships and take a look at Honda's interesting 125's...

The story of the one-two-five race bikes starts way before the history of the little "tiddler" 50cc racers... All the way back in 1959!

Honda showed up at the Isle of Man TT races with bang in '59. They brought 5 riders (four Japanese and one American), five primary bikes with four spare bikes, and enough spares and equipment to outfit a complete race shop! The bikes were all 125cc RC-142's:

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Engines were interesting... But not really that unconventional at the time. They were four-stroke twins with double-overhead cams actuating two valves per cylinder. The cams were driven by a bevel-gear shaft on the left side of the engine (this is an important point, mentioned in a moment).

It was clear immediately that the bikes were down on power, so four-valve heads were flown in from Japan. The engines displaced 124.6 cc's, with a bore & stroke of 44 x 41mm. Compression ratio was 10.5 to 1 (a number that keeps reappearing with Honda throughout their racing exploits...). It had a wet-sump and a 6-speed 'box. Power was 18.5 HP @ 13,000 RPM, with redline at 14,000. All the Jap riders finish, while the American (can anyone tell me who that was? :wink: ), and Honda wins the team prize in the class with finishes of 6th, 7th, 8th, and 11th.

This was to be a sign of things to come...

One note - Honda was very wrongly accused of "copying" the design of the NSU Rennmax 250 twins. Nothing could be further from the truth. Yes, both engines used a bevel-gear shaft to drive the cams, but the NSU's shaft drove the inlet camshaft with that driving the exhaust, whereas the Honda's shaft drove both cams. The Honda was a four-valve per cylinder engine - the NSU a two-valve. The NSU was dry-sump - the Honda a wet-sump. NSU used a battery-coil ignition - the Honda a magneto... And so on. The only true common things about the NSU and the Honda were they were four-stroke DOHC twins that used a bevel-gear shaft to drive the cams!

Anyway, moving on...

In 1960 Honda decides to do the entire GP championship instead of just one race, and they come with an all new 125 - the RC-143:

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The engine design is much the same, but the magneto was moved from being driven off the intake camshaft to a spot behind the cylinders, driven off the base of the bevel-gear camshaft drive. Power is up to 23 HP @ 14,000 RPM, but the bikes were only marginally successful, getting beat by MV and MZ regularly. Best finishes were a pair of 4th's by Redman, one at Monza and the other at Assen. Honda ends up 3rd in the manufacturer's championship for the class.

Biggest chassis change from the previous year is changing from leading-link to telescopic forks.

1961 rolls around and Honda actually tried two bikes in the 125 class. One was the ill-fated RC-144:

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With this bike Honda tried a "long-stroke" engine, with a bore & stroke of 42 x 45mm... The bike's claimed power was 22 HP @ 13,000, but few believed that. The bike was only raced once - at the German GP - and then quietly spirited away, never to be seen in competition again.

But that was okay, because Honda had an improved version of its previous year bike, and ofr 1961 this one was called the 2RC-143. Here's a couple of pics:

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The engine is identical to 1960, but gone is the spine-type frame, replaced with an "open-loop" arrangement.

Honda has a good year in the class, winning 8 out of 11 races, but only by a real stroke of luck do they win the rider's championship with Tom Phillis. See, Honda had a bunch of riders in the class, but no team "orders", so though they won 8 races, it was almost never the same rider! Meanwhile, MZ's rider - Ernst Degner - keeps finishing up front and wins 3 of the races, so he has the points lead going into the final race at Argentina, but after the race in Sweden leading up to the finale, Degner decides to *DEFECT* from East Germany!!! :shock: Needless to say, MZ refused to provide him a bike for the final round. Degner tries to get another ride for Argentina on an EMC, but the bike arrives too late and the title goes to Phillis... An interesting sidenote is that Mike Hailwood won the Isle of Man round on the 125.

So that brings us to 1962, and the all-new 125cc RC-145:

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Though the bore & stroke are still the same at 44 x 41mm, this engine is completely different. It is essentially Honda's 250cc RC-162 engine with the two outside cylinder sawed off. The cams were gear-driven in the center of the engine, and power was up at 24 HP @ 14,000 RPM. this engine was a dry-sump, too - just like the RC-162.

Honda also decided to start selling "production" racers for privateers in 1962. In the 125 class this was the much loved CR-93:

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These CR-93's were known to be fast, reliable, and easy to maintain. Many a young racer started his career on one of these. Though Honda only claimed 16.5 HP @ 11,500 RPM, it was apparent that these bikes made considerably more than that. Some tuners got as much as 22 HP out of them! Pretty heady stuff for an over-the-counter 125cc production racer at the time. These little jewels would go over 110 MPH!

Moving on to 1963, you will have to remember that Honda had been expending relatively *HUGE* amounts of yen racing the previous 4 years, and they decided to take a step back... So in '63 the 1962 bikes are given to the riders and they are left to fend for themselves. Suzuki shows up with their new two-stroke 125, and run away with the championship winning 9 out of 12 races. Honda's do finish 2nd and 3rd, though.

Honda did have one, single interesting entrant in the 1963 Japanese GP, however. It was a *FOUR-CYLINDER* 125!!! :shock: And it was designated RC-146... I don't have a picture of it, though.

But that brings us to 1964, and the 2RC-146:

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The engine is smaller version of Honda's 250cc four, and it has gear-driven camshafts, four-valves per cylinder, and a bore & stroke of 35.26 x 32mm giving a displacement of 124.99cc. Power is said to be 28 HP @ 16,500 RPM with redline at 18,000. Short bursts up to 19,000 are useable. This engine had an eight-speed gear cluster to help keep it in its narrow powerband.

Honda wins 7 of 11 races against Yamaha and Suzuki, and wins both the rider's and manufacturer's titles handily.

1965 was a disaster for Honda... They started the year with 1964's 2RC-146, but the bikes start breaking. They show up with an improved version at the Isle of Man - the 4RC-146:

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Not much different (said to only have different exhausts), and not much success with it either. Honda claimed more power - 30 HP @ 17,000 - but the bike doesn't run like it... Best finish it has is a second, and Honda gets royally trouched in the world championship.

However, there is a ray of hope at the final GP of the year... When Honda debuts a 125cc *FIVE* cylinder! It leads, but retires with mechanical problems... It is designated the RC-148:

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Essentially this engine was two-and-a-half RC-115 50cc twins... Bore & stroke was 33 x 29mm for a capcity of 124cc, DOHC with four valves per cylinder, and the cam drive by gears in between the third and fourth cylinders (left to right, if you were sitting on the bike). It has an eight-speed gearbox, is wet-sumped, and makes 34 HP @ 20,000 RPM! :shock:

Which brings us to 1966...

And the incredible 125 RC-149:

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This was most definitely the pinnacle of Honda's 125 development, and in particular it shows Honda's first attempts at playing with crank layout and firing orders to influence power delivery...

You see, the crankshaft ont the RC-149 was really unique. The left three cylinders had a crank layout with 120-degree spaced throws (just like many three-cylinder engines), but the right two cylinders has their crank throws at 180-degrees!!! Honda was never very forthcoming as to why they did this, but when I asked Irimajiri about it all he did was smile and say "Power delivery and breathing." That was all he would say on the subject, period. :D

Power was given as 38 HP @ 20,500 RPM, but the engines were known to have turned as much as 24,000, though they didn't make more power up there. The large amount of available over-rev capability was to allow Honda's riders to stay in a lower gear if necessary between corners, and minimize shifting... After all, they were racing against bloody two-strokes! :smt118

Yamaha put Phil Read and Bill Ivy up against Honda in 1966, but it didn't matter. Luigi Taveri won the title for Honda - both the manufacturer's and rider's.

This was to be the last time a four-stroke won the 125cc World Championship.

Honda withdrew from the 50cc and 125cc championships in 1967 to concentrate on the 250, 350, and 500 titles. Never again would the 125 class hear the wailing howl of the Honda Fives, and the 125cc class would forever be heard as the yowling sqeaul of two-cycles...

Sad...

Hope you enjoyed the info and the pics!

Cheers!

Dallara
Acacia
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Post by Acacia »

And.....? Is that all.....? (some pics seem not to have made it)

Thank you.

It would be nice to sit down quietly and begin to disect those machines.....
Do you also have notes on their 2 stroke motor development?

Anyone seen some of the bikes of this era at the Barber Sports Museum in AL ?

Bones- I agree with your sentiments in another subject on the depth of knloeldge resident here wholehartedly!

Acaica
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GP

Post by Bones »

Dallara left out ALL of the information on the servo assist brakes on these bikes.
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collyers
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Post by collyers »

No slipper clutches? No YPVS or EXUP? No traction control? No Deltabox or Corporate Sponsorship like Tide/Viagra/HomeDepot??? How could they have possibly raced these machines? 9 speed 50cc twins?? I think they'd sell as many as they could build - today.
The problem with the gene pool is that there is no lifeguard.
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Post by NoRRmad »

BEAUTIFUL machines! Thanks, Dallara!
#388 '02 R1150R Black: The darkest color.
dallara

Acacia, and others...

Post by dallara »

Acacia...

I have checked on my board log-in, and all the 125cc pictures are loading and showing up fine... There are 18 pictures in the original post.

Collyers and Bones...

If you look carefully you won't even see any *DISC* brakes!!!

Seriously though... Some of the engineering on this machines is even more amazing that some of the items mentioned likeslipper clutches, YPVS, etc. Remember, all these engines were air-cooled, had battery-coil or magneto or transistorized-pointless ignitions, and used carbs!!! :shock:

Nothing like the sophisticated fuel injection and engine management systems in use today... That they produced the power that they did, and that thte riders could ride them with such spindly chassis, skinny tires, and lousy brakes is a testament to not only the engineers who made that power, but those riders that finessed them around the tracks. Those guys must have carried around their testicles in *BACKPACKS*!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

And let's not forget that the tracks were not the gravel-trap lined, tire barrier coated, anesthetized wonders they are today... No sir! Lined with trees, armco barriers, brick walls, and the like.

Perhaps the thing that fascinates me the most about the era was the bikes were still very much built completely by hand... Oh sure, they had mills and lathes and welders, etc., but no CADCAM or computers. Artists built these bikes like gunsmiths used ot make firearms. Everything about them was as much art as science, and most of what was learned was by good ol' trial and error instead of in a computer simulation program... Much like the glory years of NASA and the Apollo space program, things were designed by the engineer's imagination and a slide rule... not by a string of 1's and 0's.

In another thread on another part of the board there is a discussion of how older designed weapons are the ones of choice over in Iraq, and isn't it odd that the jet aircraft (as opposed to rocket powered) that *STILL* holds all the speed an altitude records (the SR-71) was designed back in the 1950's... Sometimes I really don't know if we have gotten any better even with all our whiz-bang technology.

Mr. Honda once said "Without failure there can be no success. We need failure to learn."

Too bad those days seem to be behind us...

Maybe Roger Penske put it best... "Preparation + Effort = Results"

The 1960's were the epitome of that in GP racing.

Cheers!

Dallara
Acacia
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Post by Acacia »

The other pics came up this time.

Am I seeing 4 leading shoe front drum brakes on this bike?

What a treat it would be to see and hear one of these in a vintage track meet!!!

Thank you again Dallara
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dallara

More to come...

Post by dallara »

You are more than welcome, Acacia.

I am frankly a bit surprised that anyone, other than my weird self, would be interested in this sort of stuff. I find that so much today if it is not the "latest and greatest" nobody seems interested. The era of these bikes has always fascinated me, and the level of engineering creativity and excellence during the time absolutely awes me.

I am glad some of you find it interesting, and I will try to keep it coming as I can... At least until you guys tire of it. :wink:

I am working on a piece for the board on perhaps the most fascinating of all of Honda's GP efforts... The ill-fated oval-piston NR-500. I am having write it literally all from memory, as it seems there is very little detail these days on it. It is almost like Honda quietly quelled everything about it just out of embarassment... Which is a shame. They tried something so impossible, and did it so valiantly, that even in its failure it should be celebrated. It had far, far reaching implications... all the way to F-1, Indy Car, and Prototype sports car racing... and it literally scared everyone so bad that it changed the face of motor racing - car and bike - forever.

I will have to write it in multiple parts, so it will have its own thread, sort of in "installments"... Hopefully you will enjoy reading it. It might get a date or two wrong, because as I said I am doing literally all of it from memory, but I promise it will be fundamentally accurate.

Cheers!

Dallara
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Hondas

Post by Simon D »

Acacia, you would have loved to have been at Cadwell Park in August for British Superbikes when the organisers laid on a "special treat" between races.
Stuart Graham, former GP rider in the smaller classes, was turned loose for a couple of laps on the 297cc Honda 6cyl.
Youngsters who had no idea what it was were spellbound by the exhaust note alone, and as for us old 'uns - well, not a dry eye to be found!
As Dallara pointed out, the skills needed to ride, let alone race, these things were something else again. They had NO flywheel effect at all so if you shut the throttle and pulled the clutch in they stalled! Stuart Graham actually stalled mid corner at Cadwell on the first lap but then very quickly re-learned his old skills.
If you ever get the chance to see/hear one don't miss it, you'll kick yourself if you do.
Si
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Post by Kabusa »

Thanks Dallara,
This era was just before my time, but my first bike was a 1974 XR-75. I can see some of it in these bikes, in some of the details. Honda just facinates me. The motocross stuff too!!!
I have been reading your NR-500 posts as well. Those I remember!! I was all of 13 years old and a Roberts fan. I remember a magazine comment attributed to, I believe, an NR-500 engineer, that he refered to the cylinder banks as 'the front four' and 'the back four'.
I really wanted that NR-500 to be a winner. I am sure I am not alone!
'02 R1150RA Blk (Sold)
2000 V11 Sport
'90 GS500 w/ wide wheels, inv forks, braced arm
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