Has anyone water tortured their bike- Carbon deposits?

[Soliton]

OK here goes,

I have had some mild issues with pre-ignition. They are generally controllable by having a gentle hand on the throttle, but a number of "pundits" have suggested that carbonisation inside the engine (piston faces etc) will make any issues worse by promoting uneven burn fronts. (This is a paraphrase.)

A commonly proposed solution is to start the bike with 30cm of tubing on the TB vacuum port and suck 20mm of water out of the bottom of a cup into the motor whilst it is running. Change sides, repeat, replace oil and plugs.

The advocates of this rather gruesome activity call it "water-torture" Some folk say it will bring on the end -times, cause boils, generally offend whatever deity you vote for, and more importantly screw your engine. I am not concerned about the first three, it is just the last that troubles me. Other folk say it works and it is cheap.

I am preparing to re-build the TBs and clean the injectors but I am not keen to remove the heads and manually de-carbonise them. My mechanic reckons that an essentially bog standard R1150r should run fine on Australian 91 octane or E10 fuel (Petrol with 10% ethanol), and this is what I generally use. 95 or 98 is wicked expensive here.

So...

1 - Is the "carbon build up promoting pre-ignition" theory crap or true?
2 - Does water torture work or is it just dangerous rubbish. (one suggestion involved the use of near boiling water to reduce temperature differentials)
3 - If you were going to remove the heads for this job is there any good reason not to send them to SJ BMW for dual plugging and a mild port and polish. Yes it cost $$$ but I own the heads and they already need to be re-installed at this point.
4 - OR....Is removing the heads and manually de-carbonising them something I could do at home with a bit of patience. (I call this the "suck it up petal and grow some nads" option)
5 - Could the fact that I generally ride at low revs and change short be exacerbating the problem. (I'm talking 3000rpm in top at 100km/h. Unladen and with a 75kg rider......60mph and 175 lbs) The bike just toddles along but it really doesn't sound like it is labouring.

Any help is much appreciated. I am not building a crotch rocket I just want it to run happily , reliably and optimally. My riding is between 60kmh and 130km/h (35 and 75 mph) for 99% of the time and I would rarely rev the bike beyond 6000rpm. I admit it..I mostly ride like your nanna.

Regards,

Sol

[AndyRR]

I only ever put 93 octane (premium) in my bike and it pinged very badly under load. Struggled to reach 100mph and sounded like hell when I was there. I ended up pulling the heads and documented it here: http://r1150r.net/board/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=22302 .

So...

1 - Very true. There was a night and day difference in the bike after de-carbonization. It must have gained 20hp.
2 - Don't know. See how thick my carbon deposits were? Not sure that any amount of steam would clean that. I even tried steam-cleaning the carbon off the piston directly. When the fog cleared, I'm pretty sure I heard the carbon laughing at me. Perhaps this would help to keep a relatively engine stay clean.
3 - I think you'll be amazed at the power increase from just cleaning that crap out of there. Not sure how much this would get you.
4 - It's not that hard - especially with the tech support available here. I didn't even have a workbench at the time. I did all my work on a cardboard box. Get the valve compression tool you see in my post if you go this route.
5 - The general theory is that low RPM riding contributes to carbon.

[riceburner]

Ride it like you stole it.

I do - bike runs much better afterwards.

[Dr. Strangelove]

Agree 100% with RB
Flog her, ride her hard. They love it and want more.
This probably means some pretty decent twisties though that will allow for lots of hi rev transmission hijinks and shifts, rather than topping out on a straight

[GSGeezer]

Just had my 80th since Oct. Haven't digested the manual yet. Take your bike out for a ride! The manual for my 320is (bought new in '81) suggested running the motor for an hour at 4500 rpm if you did not exercise the car often. My mechanic told me that BMW's are more efficient and run better at anything below red line. Manual also said to never drive below 1500 rpm for any reason; mechanic told me 2000 was 'his' limit. When traveling on interstates, I would just slip down into third hour.. It helped in getting used to more rpms and taught me how to hear the music. I was brought up on lumbering V8's.
I felt that the extended head temp was high enough to burn off the carbon. IMHO just out on "interesting roads' varying rpms would not sustain the constant temp to burn off the carbon. Your results may very; but after 163,000 miles and a couple dozen driving schools the engine was still fine. That little 1.8 was the one they laid on the side to develope 'the brick'.
Hence, with that history I keep my R about 3k. Even at that I never "load" the engine without down shifting at least once, usually twice. "Listening to the music" sure beats disassembling anything.

[Dr. Strangelove]

Your 80th what? Birthday? Congratulations!

While I don't disagree with some long steady distance at higher rpms, I find that in my case the revving up and down of a very spirited run as on a Deals Gap or Coronado trail makes the engine just purr more than the long distance straights.
So, I am saying that the "interesting roads" allow for higher temps because of higher revving at slower speeds, so less cooling, than an interstate run develops.

Splitting hairs though as the point is Run The Engine. Do not baby it thinking you're doing it a favor.

Man, I hope when I enter my ninth decade I, too, am still riding. Hail, GSGeezer!

[owldaddy]

Doc, I think he means he has an edition 80 Rockster. I believe they came out in 2004.

[Dr. Strangelove]

Oh


misled by the screenname. I am in my geezer years, you know.

[garr2]

Your 80th what? Birthday? Congratulations!

Doc,
You weren't mistaken, just premature!

[wncbmw]

The 'ride it like you stole it' mantra is also called (by my riding friends at least) - an Italian tuneup. High rpms on a regular basis will keep things clean.

Except for long interstate runs required sometimes on trips, I pretty much ride that way all the time. 63K with no problems.

[Dr. Strangelove]

Ditto
At 86k

[Sunbeemer]

After long stints on the interstate (~3500 rpm) I've noticed my engine is prone to increased surging which is felt after I exit and am running at slower speeds (2500 rpm) in lower gears (2nd+3rd). This is particularly noticeable under very humid, cool conditions. But after a bit of hooliganism that practically vanishes.

I attribute this to increased carbon build-up on the pistons & heads during the long periods of moderate rpm's with little throttle changes, but it seems that large, sudden throttle excursions quickly clean the carbon out. I don't know how effective this would be for excessive carbon build up, but it'd be fun tryin'! Just don't let it ping too badly or you risk holing a piston

And a good fuel additive might help. I use a little Sea-Foam every now and again and it certainly smooths out the ride.

IF I were going to attempt to "water cure" my engine, I'd do it the way the old water injection systems used to try to (ineffectively) eliminate pinging by aspirating aerosoled water from a sealed container using an aquarium airstone (bubbler) in it connected to ambient air, and the suction tube to your throttle body comes off the top of that container. That way, no liquid water gets into your engine that could cause it to hydro-lock.

[AndyRR]

High rpms on a regular basis will keep things clean.

Exactly. But, if you must be gentle with the throttle to avoid pinging, you're likely past the point of "keeping things clean". I used only high octane and ran SeaFoam through on a regular basis. Problem was, it already had heavy carbon deposits. After being humiliated by a Harley that I couldn't keep up with on a highway, I cleaned all that crap out. It was like a new machine. Full throttle, 6th gear, 87 octane (our lowest octane), uphill - nothing but grins WAY past 100MPH.

If your pistons look anything like mine, you're past Italian tune-ups and likely past any water treatment. With the parts in my hand, no amount of solvent or steam would remove those deposits. I tried. Only wire-wheels and chisels worked. It cost me less that $200 in parts and about 6-8 hours (if you don't include the hours and hours of troubleshooting to find the right side throttle cable being pulled out of it's ferrule) to do.

[wncbmw]

Wow! That must have been a lot of lugging the engine to create that much deposit!

On long interstate runs, I try to make sure the ramp back onto the slab is used to clean out my carbon buildup!

Honest Officer! That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

[ebincia]

As said before... spin the motor and even slap it off the rev limiter from time to time . It'll thank you.

[R1150Rclean]

can be added to the gas every 4th tank to help clean the cylinder, to the oil to help free stuck rings, and they make a foaming version to spray into the cylinder to remove carbon deposits. I have done the first two and they along with never running below 3k rpm and running it fast regularly have cured my rough idle. The foam should speed up what adding to the gas will do over several tanks, Seafoam in the gas will also clean the valve stems, not sure about the foam.

[Soliton]

OK Following everyones suggestions to deal with possible carbonisation, I have:

1- Thrashed the tripe out of it. (Up as high as 7500 rpm and regularly at 5000 every day for a week or so)
My wife heard the expression "Italian Tune-up" and since the build up is in and around the heads, she conflated the two issues and ended up asking me if I was out to give the bike an "Italian Headjob". Oh we laughed !

2 - Run a few tanks of various de-carbonising products (at much higher concentrations than they suggest) I have heard very good reports of a product called BG 44K. It isn't available in stores but can be sourced via dealerships etc. I have found a local dealership and will run some through. (Belt and braces)

3 - Water Tortured the engine.

After all three I took it out with some 91 E10 (91 Octane 10% ethanol) rode it up a hill at 2700 rpm (80km/h) and cracked the throttle wide open.

Not a whimper just rolled on up to 7500 rpm without missing a beat. So one or all of these combined treatments seems to have worked. As an aside if feels like it has just been tuned, that may be some automotive placebo effect but the "non-pinging" is absolutely objective.

My Water Torture technique uses a slight variation that seemed to avoid the stalling issues some folk have. Here goes...

1 - Set up a fan in front of the engine.
2 - Warm up the bike and get a helper. I got my wife to work my throttle with instructions to throttle on if the engine started to die and throttle off it it started to race too much. (She has never ridden a bike but got the idea immediately)
3 - Connect 60 cm of clear plastic tube to the vacuum nipple on the throttle body.
4 - Boil some distilled / de-ionised / rain water
5 - Pour the just boiled water (very hot) into a heat proof jug that you can tip (like you are pouring)
6 - Control the flow of water by tipping the jug over to about 45 degrees and holding the tube at the edge of the water. By doing it this way I was able to go from a gentle bubble stream (very little water) to almost complete water by simply moving the tube a couple of mm in or out of the water. The engine went no where near stalling and I was able to put 300ml (half a pint) through each side.
7 - When both sides are done take it out and run the engine hard. I found a section of road where I could run it at 7500 rpm in second for a couple of minutes then cycle up and down.

The trick really seemed to be having a helper and using the tipped jug/tube near the edge of the water thing to control the volume of water going into the engine.

Having done this it was BOG EASY, cost nothing (I used fish tank tubing) and took about 15 mins.

I am going to to pull the plugs and see what it looks like in the engine (11 year old with good eyes and a bright torch).

Tell you what I find.

Thanks everyone for their help.

[Buckster]

I am curious too find out! That dreaded "pinging" when you crack the throttle is the only thing I can't stand about this bike! I run the Seafoam in the winter mostly and now I run super unleaded grade gas at all times as that seems to help. I have thought about the carbon build up in my bike....but am afraid to take it apart to scrape it off with a wire wheel!