Smooth idle - YES!

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deilenberger
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Smooth idle - YES!

Post by deilenberger »

My bike has been experiencing an increasingly rough idle. Rough enough that the transmission was knocking gears around noisily if I left the clutch engaged (in neutral).. and the mirrors were waggling around at traffic lights. Once in a while (rarely) it would even stall when coming to a stop sign or light.

Back a long time ago I had sort of similar symptoms - which I tracked down to worn insulation on a wire to #2 O2 sensor, which caused it to not work intermittently, so the engine went into a default map, at least on that cylinder.

Bike ran above idle just fine. Plenty of power, smooth, no excessive vibes.. so it wasn't valve adjustment or throttle-body sync.

I've been chasing this one for about a year - and finally today achieved success.

About 4 months ago I picked up a spare set of throttle-bodies with injectors, hoses, rubber boots, and idle/stepper regulators off Ebay. (It was one of those "got it so cheap I couldn't pass it up..) These have been sitting in the box they came in since then.

Today - as part of my 64,000 mile service, I decided to clean the idle passages in my throttle-bodies. Easy job to do - remove the plastic covers over the TB's (two T25 screws), then remove the connector from the steppers, and two more T25 screws, and they are exposed.

On oilhead bikes this was part of my regular 12,000 mile tune-up job. The oilhead used screw-adjustable air bypass passages to set the idle, combined with throttle bodies where the butterfly didn't quite close. The passages were fairly small, and the screws had a sharp tapered needle sort of end. Usually cleaning these made for a much better idle, and they seemed to get crudded up fairly quickly.

The hexhead (and I assume camhead) design uses a blunt sort of plunger/plug attached to the end of a stepper-motor screw, that extends or retracts in response to the stepper motor. The blunt plug has a slight taper on it, and goes into a large hole in the throttle-body casting that bypasses the butterfly. On the hexheads - the butterfly is completely closed (against a step in the bore) at idle. All idle air is going through the bypass passage and regulated by the stepper valve assembly.

So - what did I find? Cylinder #2 (port side) had a tiny bit of crud in the recess in the throttle-body, but IMHO, not enough to really effect anything. I cleaned it out with some MAF cleaner (good quality electrical cleaner that leaves no residue) and a Q-tip. I then looked at the tapered plug on the stepper assembly. There was some very slight rub marks on the side of the plug, but nothing really noticeable by fingernail. I took one of the "spare" steppers from a used throttle-body and looked at it. Same design, same PN#, different manufacturer I think, and where one had some black plated metal, the used one had brass colored metal. It had no scrape marks on the plunger/plug, so I cleaned this up and installed it (don't forget the O ring.)

I then looked at Cylinder #1 (starboard side) - no crud at all (but I cleaned it anyway) which I attribute to the port side being the crankcase vent side, this side doesn't see crankcase fumes. I took a look at my other spare stepper - and it had some rub marks on the plug/plunger, so I passed on installing it. But before putting the original one back in, I made a discovery..

Behind the plug end is a sleeve of metal (the black or brass part I mentioned.) Turns out this is spring loaded against the plunger, and serves to protect the stepper motor threaded shaft. It can be slid back about 1/4" with just finger pressure. When I did - I could see the stepper motor shaft was grease covered, and some of the grease had hardened up.

LIGHT BULB time! When checking my engine with my GS-911 I'd noticed the steppers frequently went out of sync at idle speed. I thought this was normal, and the ECU was telling it to. Turns out - that's probably not entirely correct. While the ECU can control the steppers individually - they are supposed to stay in step even at idle (and they're out of the circuit and locked above idle.) The GS-911 has a function allowing you to zero the steppers out (which is also done every time you turn the key on if you wait for the instrument dance to finish.)

I removed both steppers and re-lubricated the shafts. I have tiny little plastic paint applicators from EastWood auto - made for touching up rock chips in paint. They are a toothpick thickness plastic with a tiny little fuzzy end (meant to pick up a tiny bit of paint and precisely fill the rock chip.) These seemed perfect for the job.

I used some synthetic moly grease from RedLine. I chose this because I know it holds up and stays fluid for a LONG time, and it seemed the right viscosity for this application (a WAG, but it worked.) I used the paint dabber to get the grease down along the stepper motors threaded shafts.

I then reinstalled the steppers, and first ran the ZERO step function on my GS-911 to distribute the grease, and then another function it has to "exercise" the steppers (it's a stepper actuation function, where they just cycle open/closed for as long as you enable the function.

Finally I started the bike. SMOOTH idle. And the steppers were staying in sync according the the GS-911.

Did a test ride to a mechanic friends house, who had previously commented on my crappy idle, and as I rode in he asked "what did you do to the bike?"... It's really that noticeable.

Harry - if you want to stop by some afternoon we can do yours.. take about 15 minutes now that I know what needs to be done (and you're at about the same mileage as I am..)

If anyone is interested I'll try to take a few photos of the spare steppers, showing where to lube them before I put them back up on the shelf. Lemme know.

Happy happy! And my new EBC rotor came for the rear, so I have another project for tomorrow.. Retirement doesn't get better then working on the bike and taking test rides. :)

PS - update - a friend who not too long ago bought a used '07 R12R with about no miles on it also experienced the rough idle and occasional stall. I gotta send him this link.. (Hi Fletch!) It appears time is probably the culprit in the grease hardening up, not use.
Last edited by deilenberger on Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
Don Eilenberger - NJ Shore
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Newportcycle
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Re: Smooth idle - YES!

Post by Newportcycle »

Great job Don, perseverance wins out every time. Thanks much for posting this fix.
roger l
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Re: Smooth idle - YES!

Post by roger l »

Don:
Pictures would be great. My idle is getting rough and I might take mine apart and relube them to see if that helps. Also, can you give more information on the grease?

Thanks
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Re: Smooth idle - YES!

Post by KMalo »

deilenberger wrote:
If anyone is interested I'll try to take a few photos of the spare steppers, showing where to lube them before I put them back up on the shelf. Lemme know.

PS - update - a friend who not too long ago bought a used '07 R12R with about no miles on it also experienced the rough idle and occasional stall. I gotta send him this link.. (Hi Fletch!) It appears time is probably the culprit in the grease hardening up, not use.
Don,

Would love to see the pix. Are you going to post the whole procedure somewhere? If not, I'll archive it somewhere. Nowhere near your mileage yet, but seems like it's almost inevitably going to need the procedure.

Chuck
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Re: Smooth idle - YES!

Post by deilenberger »

OK, lets see if this works:

The stepper motor assembly:
Image

The mounting screws:
Image

Stepper details:
Image

Throttle body after removing the stepper assembly:
Image

The recess and passages after cleaning:
Image

The sleeve retracted:
Image

That should show what you need to do.. piece'a cake.

One thing to note - do NOT leave connected and turn ignition on with the steppers removed from the TB's. According to Interwebz lore - the tapered plug will unscrew itself from the threaded shaft on the motor and are very difficult to impossible to reassemble. So just don't do that unless you want to buy a new stepper.

I do recall seeing a posting from some R12R owner who was having idle problems (was it here? Perhaps..) and he ended up with the dealer replacing both steppers for a buncha'cash. Probably could have saved the cash if he'd known about lubricating them.

DISCLAIMER: I'm just telling you what I did and why I did it. I could well be a raging baboon, so if you do what I did - don't say I told'ya to. You've been warned. May not be legal in all states. Excessive use may cause flatulence. Use only under the supervision of an adult. And of course - your mileage MAY vary..
Don Eilenberger - NJ Shore
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Re: Smooth idle - YES!

Post by deilenberger »

KMalo wrote:Don,

Would love to see the pix. Are you going to post the whole procedure somewhere? If not, I'll archive it somewhere. Nowhere near your mileage yet, but seems like it's almost inevitably going to need the procedure.

Chuck
Chuck,

I may make a DIY over on the MOA forum, hasn't been a good Hexhead one made in a while now.. and the good part of that is the MOA will host the photos so if my Photobucket account goes kablooey the photos will survive. Mebbe tomorrow night. Right now it's back to "House of Cards.." (Episode 7 & 8 tonight I think..)
Don Eilenberger - NJ Shore
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Re: Smooth idle - YES!

Post by KMalo »

deilenberger wrote:
KMalo wrote:Don,

Would love to see the pix. Are you going to post the whole procedure somewhere? If not, I'll archive it somewhere. Nowhere near your mileage yet, but seems like it's almost inevitably going to need the procedure.

Chuck
Chuck,

I may make a DIY over on the MOA forum, hasn't been a good Hexhead one made in a while now.. and the good part of that is the MOA will host the photos so if my Photobucket account goes kablooey the photos will survive. Mebbe tomorrow night. Right now it's back to "House of Cards.." (Episode 7 & 8 tonight I think..)
That would be great, Don. Thanks.

Chuck

PS: I watched the whole "House of Cards" series a couple of weeks ago. I'm hooked; ready for season 2 or whatever they decide to call it :)
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Re: Smooth idle - YES!

Post by omg1010 »

Good morning Don,

thanks for sharing your excellent findings and the detailed description =D> I would have never thought about this ....

Brgds
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Re: Smooth idle - YES!

Post by hjsbmw »

Hey Don,
Good find, good post, good pictorial, and an easy and quick fix. I may do it just because or when I need to occupy myself. I am currently happy with my idle, but who knows, maybe I just got used to it and there is actually room for improvement.
One question: did you check the throttle synch after the grease job, and did you find a change or need to redo the synch?
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Re: Smooth idle - YES!

Post by deilenberger »

hjsbmw wrote:Hey Don,
Good find, good post, good pictorial, and an easy and quick fix. I may do it just because or when I need to occupy myself. I am currently happy with my idle, but who knows, maybe I just got used to it and there is actually room for improvement.
One question: did you check the throttle synch after the grease job, and did you find a change or need to redo the synch?
Hi Harald,

Nope. Haven't bothered yet. I'm in the middle of a tuneup, so that's on the agenda for after the valve adjustment. I don't expect to see any difference since the throttles are fully closed at idle (with some slack in the cables) and since the steppers are setting the balance (correctly now.)

On a scale of 1-10 for mechanical difficulty, I give this a 3 (1 would be turning the key to turn the ignition on, 10 would be R&R and rebuild of the engine.) Don't drop the screws, make sure the O ring is back in place. About 15 minutes per side the first time, half that next time.
Don Eilenberger - NJ Shore
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Re: Smooth idle - YES!

Post by Mister Moo »

Nice repair. I too feel like doing a preemptive lubrication on a rainy day. 65,000 miles.... Why not?
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Re: Smooth idle - YES!

Post by GForman »

my '07 has 66,xxx + miles on it and it idles rough. gonna give this a try and hopefully it will smooth things out a bit. thanks for the info and pics.
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Re: Smooth idle - YES!

Post by dbrick »

My '07 is only at 28K, sometimes I think the idle is rough, so I pulled the steppers. No marks on the plungers, but the lube under the sliding covers was sticky. I Q-tipped the old lube out, and relubed with some white lithium - probably completely unsuitable, but right there on the shelf.

I went for a ride. The engine is smoother at idle and at low rpms. Thanks!
Last edited by dbrick on Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:41 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Smooth idle - YES!

Post by roger l »

I have a 2008 with 29,000 miles and I pulled my steppers to see what the grease looked like. The grease in my steppers looked like a white lithium grease. It did not appear to be dry or sticky. I removed as much as I could and re-lubed both sides of the shaft with a Bosch purple bearing grease I had from my RC helicopters. I took the bike for a ride it might be a little smoother. Could be the new broom sweeps clean type thing. The temperature was 42 degrees F when I went for the ride. It might be smoother when the temperatures warm up.
It was a very easy fix to make. For anyone who has the tools to do it I would suggest pulling the steppers and replace the grease. It might do you a lot of good. Thanks Don for the excellent how to.

Roger L
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Re: Smooth idle - YES!

Post by deilenberger »

I've put about 500 miles on it since I first did it, and can report it continues to idle well. This is a GOOD thing. Just finished the 64,000 mile service, will have to write that up also.
Don Eilenberger - NJ Shore
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Re: Smooth idle - YES!

Post by celticus »

Good job Don. Thanks.

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Re: Smooth idle - YES!

Post by johnvw »

Dear Don,
Many thanks for sharing.
Regards John
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