Clutch Spline Failure Analysis

[awagnon]

Shortly after reading the MCN article, I send an 'letter (email) to the editor', referencing these threads. Never head back, but we'll see. I encourage everyone else to send an email about this subject, especially those directly affected.

I sent a letter to MCN last week about the clutch spline issue. (Mine failed.) Perhaps if they get enough letters, they will get the idea it isn't just a few bitch and moaners and print at least one.

[Just-Beeming]

I am sure you have all been waiting breathlessly to hear the outcome of my bike.

I picked it up a week ago and have put almost 2000 miles on it. It runs flawlessly and shifts marvelously.

I might be early in singing the praises of my dealership, but they have been terrific. It is currently out without bail...
what I mean is that I picked it up, no money paid and my dealer is still advocating on my behalf.

I think it really speaks to having good raport with the dealership. This is why.... when a new shop came to town, I stayed where I was. I had history and RELATIONSHIP. I think it is a key component to the advocacy piece of this equation. I have been loyal to them so they are going to bat for me.

Like I said...may be too early yet to shout my love for Portland Motorcycle...but so far I think they have done right by me.

more to follow....

[sweatmark]

JB-

Great news, and hope it all works out. We feel we have a similar relationship with BMWOR and would hope to have similar dealer support should the unthinkable happen to either of our R1150Rs.

Mark
Oregon

[CycleRob]

1. Too much engine torque for the designed splines
2. Clutch splines which are not physically sized robust enough
3. Clutch splines that have the incorrect temper hardness
4. Inadequate tolerances for initial spline machining alignments (ie too loose)
E.G. Too tight tolerances has the effect of the splines binding together and staying stuck.

Well said Arbee. To that I'd add:

--It is an inadequate, unconventional design from the start. Decades of successful similar automotive designs were ignored for one with partial spline axial depth engagement, that appears doomed to fail.
--Wear marks midway on worn input shaft splines show the affects of fretting on a cantilevered spinning clutch disk.
--Denial and lack of support from BMW for this embarrassing, expensive, buzzkilling DEFECT is unconscionable.

I am in the process of replacing the 2 rear wheel shaft bearings at a cost of several hundred dollars. Worn out prematurely likely from a mystery combination of bearing quality and improper factory shimming. Marietta BMW will do only the final new bearing shim adjustments. A total expense that NEVER happens with shaft drive Hondas, even when chocolate mud is drained from their decades old neglected FD cases. When it happens, all too often, on a brand considered to have premium quality German Engineering, the blame and repair burden must not fall on the owners.
My next bike, in spite of BMW's tarnished reputation will very likely be another BMW. It will not have a German or even a boxer motor. It will have a water cooled Rotax Type 804 engine power, efficient lightweight belt drive and a well behaved wet clutch I can remove in 5 minutes or less.

.

[sweatmark]

CycleRob-

Quite the coincidence! Similar to your choice, my next bike will not have a German/boxer motor, but will be equipped with both a Rotax water-cooled engine, efficient and lightweight belt drive, and a well behaved wet clutch. And it will be $4K cheaper, 40HP stronger, and 40+ pounds lighter than the latest BMW R1200 crop.



BMW has no idea what negative impact the spline and rear drive defects have caused.

[snowprick]

My 10 cents worth. My bike is in bits for a clutch failure due to a GB oil seal leak. It has a total of 18,000 miles on the clock. Would that happen on a Honda? I THINK NOT. Shame on BMW.

[ProductUser]

I've been reading about spline failues for 3+ years on this and other sites. In short, the problem appears to be a mis-alignment issue; go to the BMW ST site and you'll find an in-depth analysis and fix.

I will speak up for one the ones that hasn't failed in 70k miles. The Internet breeds fear; it's where people go to find answers to problems. These problems manifest themselves into a frenzy, and here we are. I'm not saying there isn't a problem, there is, I'm just wondering what the REAL stats are. How many people out there have 40,50,60...100k miles on their R without a spine problem?

I wonder how many Mercedes, BMW and other high-end cars have problems???? They do! Look at BMW cars and their cooling system failures.

I'm going to go ride.


PU

[OU812]

I ask the question, has BMW made the changes on the Hexheads to avoid the same problems suffered with the Oilheads?

[owldaddy]

I ask the question, has BMW made the changes on the Hexheads to avoid the same problems suffered with the Oilheads?

I don't think BMW sees this as a problem. Nothing to fix in their eyes. However as stated before, I hope they take extra care not to alienate their customers, thanks to the internet there is the perception of a problem in the eyes of their customers. Since the number of these problems seems to be very low, it should be in their best interest to take care of the customer, that would go a long way to make us feel more comfortable with them and our machines. That is the way to keep the customers they do have. Treat us like royalty, we will stay with them if they do.
Don

[boxermania]

ProductUser

Certainly everyone is entitled to seek REAL data to make an educated decision. In your case and I quote:

I've been reading about spline failures for 3+ years on this and other sites. In short, the problem appears to be a mis-alignment issue; go to the BMW ST site and you'll find an in-depth analysis and fix.

I will speak up for one the ones that haven’t failed in 70k miles. The Internet breeds fear; it's where people go to find answers to problems. These problems manifest themselves into a frenzy, and here we are. I'm not saying there isn't a problem, there is, I'm just wondering what the REAL stats are. How many people out there have 40,50,60...100k miles on their R without a spine problem?

The mere fact that the complaint has endured at least 3 years validates it's existence, on the other hand the lack of any real numbers other than what is seen in forums like this validates that BMW doesn't see it as a problem.

In any case it is preposterous to have a highly predicated name such as BMW associated with a product so full of little issues, that is aside from the clutch spline failure, that appear to be poor engineering and product planning.

Last but not least, anyone that reads this post could very easily say that I have a beef with BMW and I do, but not because of a personal experience as I owned a CPO 02 R1150R with 5 years/60K miles warranty and was into mods as early as 2.5 K miles, taking the bike apart many times with never a problem barring the fuel line quick connects. My passion does come to pass because I have been around rotating equipment all my life where a great deal of my work is based on failure analysis and that is precisely what we are dealing with here.......an engineering/manufacturing failure that BMW is not willing to acknowledge due to their Teutonic Arrogance. I've said this many, many times and stand by it.

So be it..........and how fitting, it's my 2600 post.

[OU812]

2600! Congrats!

[awagnon]

The Internet breeds fear; it's where people go to find answers to problems. These problems manifest themselves into a frenzy, and here we are. I'm not saying there isn't a problem, there is, I'm just wondering what the REAL stats are. How many people out there have 40,50,60...100k miles on their R without a spine problem?

I'm sure this is partly true, but there is a real problem. I went to the national MOA rally the last two years and asked about everyone I met with an 1150RT if they had experienced drive train problems. I didn't keep a count, but I would guess maybe 10% or more had either spline or FD failures. These were not internet complainers, but just riders I asked.

I've asked the MOA to do a survey or use our collective membership of 40,000 or more BMW riders to pressure BMW to give some real numbers. However, the MOA politely says they are a social organization and not an advocate for their members. I doubt we will ever know.

By the way, my second set of splines on my RT are showing significant wear after only 10,000 miles. I suspect this will be my last BMW, or at least the last one with a shaft drive.

End of rant.

[OU812]

A few months ago they had in the MOA mag. a FD failure survey.

[timl]

Reading all the reports of spline failure has caused me to ride my Rockster differently. I avoid unnecessary gear changes by going 1-3-5 or 1-2 4 depending on the approaching speed limit. I am very careful when shifting: no power shifting, I let off the gas when clutching in, and I try to match engine speed before releasing the clutch.

Even so, without an explanation of the cause, I am not sure whether I am helping or hurting my chances of spline failure.

33,000 miles so far without issues...

[ProductUser]

One point was missed: Other expensive vehicles have their faults as well, BMW cars for example. The cooling system is only good for about 50k miles before you run the risk of a cooling system failure that can cause your engine to fail. This is well documented on several BMW forums. These people are spending 10's of thousands on a car that can fail without notice and cost 1000's to repair if you're lucky. And, BMW cars have a vastly large market share than BMW motorcycles in the US. Why isn't BMW doing anything about it? Why isn't NHTSA requiring a recall? I don't know the answer to either of those questions.

I don't have a lot of history with motorcycles, so I don't know if there are any other brands of motorcycles with similar failure issues. Yes, other motorcycle companies perform better customer service, most don't.

One way to show your dislike is by not buying BMW's, which is what several people are doing.

Expecting a name like BMW to mean quality is a poor choice in today's market; you should read about what some the marquee names have done to the economy.

I don't want to beat this horse to death, so this is my last post on this topic.

PU

[boxermania]

Time to recycle as new members to the forum are falling pray of the malady.

[samaaron]

Yes this thread concerns me since I am thinking seriously about purchasing a 2004 R1150R, I want to ride and not spend time or money on repairs.
Thanks

[spoon]

An observation. 2004 Rockster, 19,000 miles. I have noticed lately that sometimes when stopped with clutch out in neutral a loud knock, almost like a rod knock comes from the engine. Pull in the clutch knock goes away. Let the clutch back out and usually the knock does not return. If it does not go away another cycle of the clutch lever and all is quite. I wonder if the clutch disk does not center and the knock is the disk banging around on the input shaft out of center. Releasing pressure on the disk allows it to find center. If this is the case when in neutral could the samething be happening in gear but we do not hear the knock because of road and wind noise.

[boxermania]

spoon

During the recent CycleRob's Tech Session we noticed that one of te attendees had a similar knock to what you described and it also appeared and disapeared by depressing the clutch. We looked and listened all over the bike for the source, left timing chain tensioner, valves out of adjustment, to no avail.

Personally, and we discussed it with the owner, I think we have an advanced wear issue on the clutch disc/tranny input shaft splines. The noise comes about when the clutch disc slams and takes up the clearance of the worn out teeth against the tranny input shaft teeth, as the clutch lever is actuated.

I have had ample opportunity to research, visualize and formulate a hypothesis of why and how this phenomena takes place. I need to compose and share it with the forum.

[spoon]

After thinking about this in my sleep I'll give a few thoughts.
The trans input shaft is allowed to flex because of its diamater to length ratio and its hollow. All support cames from the input bearing. If that bearing has an issue the shaft is more likely to whip. The shaft may whip anyway because of harmonics. If the shaft is bent (as in dinged during assembly) you will have an excessive amount of runout at the disk end. Has anyone measured runout on a replaced shaft? The manufacturing process for shafts of this type are straight forward and tight tollerances are easy to maintain so I would not think the issue is in making the shaft. However an improper heat treat with a holed shaft could cause it to warp.
If the input shaft is perpendicular to the fly wheel surface I don't see where miss alignment would cause an issue because the clutch disk is free to move around the flywheel and pressure plate and seek its own center. However if the shaft is not perpendictular to the flywheel surface an issue could be at hand. It should be easy to check the dimension or run out of the input shaft to the trans to engine mating surface, at the trans side. Also check the dimension of the flywheel surface to the engine to trans mating surface at the engine side. An out of true condition here will cause the clutch disk to seek the side with the greater clearance (which is constantly changing). I don't know how much mismatch would be to great. It would be nice to know what the BMW spec. is, or if there is a spec. for those surfaces.
On another note, todays heat treat process's do not allow the hardining to go as deep as past practices allowed. So it is easer to wear thru the hard metal (shaft). Has anyone looked at clutch disk hub's from say a VW beatle or Subaru. I believe most hub's are cast iron. Hardness is not the only thing to think about in the case of the hub.
I did not give any fixes for the problem. And I think we need some more dimensional information on failed and failing units. I am still concerned that while we are going down the road in what ever crusing gear, that the disk may be misaligned and we don't know it. It may be worth while to cycle the clutch a couple of times after you are in your going down the road gear to allow the disk to center on the shaft. In the meantime I think the problem is fixable, we just need to find the variables. I don't think rider style (abuse) has more affect here than on any other manual trans.

Boxermaina - I look forward to your ideas on this.