Should I?...Should I really? But I've always owned Harleys.

[WILDPIG]

WELL, you can count me in, placed my order for 1 midnight black r1200 this afternoon. after 40 yrs o harleys an miscellaneous other stuff-- the boxer oughta be an interesting ride. im sure my ass will apreciate the smoothness as i go to laconia sturgis an daytona fall rally this yr. the paintshaker- springer will be the short haul bike,, i aint yer typical hd rider though-- 110,000 on the springer.

[BackNBlack]

An interesting dilemma, one I've been struggling with on and off for the past year - which bike to get after my sportbike. Turned out it was the R1200R which I bought last year and appreciate more every time I ride it. The Harley's really do something for me when I see them parked. A Road King just looks so great - solid, chrome, big. And it feels good sitting on it, imaging myself going down the road. But I did not really enjoy riding it, maybe I've never gotten used to cruisers, always loved the standards, or just needed more power, and a nimble feel to a bike. The A&S cycles slogan "It's about the ride" I never really thought about until recently when I began thinking more about how great a quality of ride and features are on the R12R. So maybe for me its becoming less of what the ride looks like when its parked in the garage or in front of the coffee shop as what the ride feels like when I'm out there doing what really counts - actually putting on miles enjoying the bike. Bar backs and an Ackro exhaust I think will make it near perfection. Otherwise, take every great feature that is useful for a solid ride and its there on the R12R.

[Dan-A]

The Harley's really do something for me when I see them parked. A Road King just looks so great - solid, chrome, big.

True
http://gallery.mac.com/dan.albertson#10 ... olor=black

[boxermania]

The K and the R are two vastly diferent bikes. I like to reduce everythiong to the common denominator and the way I see it is:

Most of the time one would be lucky to ride the K bike at 60% of it's potential and not live dangerously, in the case of the R bike that comes close to 90% of the time.....what can I say........

[celticus]

Well that chrome will certainly give you something to polish. Polishing chrome is NOT for me that's why Harleys are not for me. Having been around BMW people and Harley people I'd say BMW people are more my style also. I've had K bikes and R bikes and the Rs are definitly more to my liking. I LOVE this R1200R!
Mark

[Hilljack]

choppertodd....from one n00b to another.....
As a fellow Harley guy considering a switch to BMW I have the following questions,concerns and comments:

1. I also currently own a garage full of Harley's (3 Shovelheads and 1 Twin Cam and a 1971 CB750) and I cannot believe these BMWs have such issues breaking with relatively low miles on them. It makes me grateful for the dependability of my Shovelheads. I understand that there are two dynamics at play......one is the internet lends itself to people "complaining" and the other is with "cutting edge" technology you're going to have some issues. I read posts where people are having problems with items like the keys and their antennas, clutch issues, rear axle or seal issues...all at relatively low miles....WTF?

2. I much prefer the German engineering over the Japanese or even American but with it means you sometimes get American shops that are seemingly incompetent. While I havent used the Harley dealership in years (because they're the same) you can usually find some true experts out there that can work with the simplicity of the American engineering challenges. A good BMW expert that is plugged in to all the "factory recalls" and is capable and prepared to deal with "engineering/technology glitches" seems like it would be much harder to find.

3. The BMW dealership network seems to be sparse and sometimes disorganized (not to mention "snooty" ..... thats BMW language for a$$wipes...I guess). From the posts I've read the level of service seems to be sporadic at best. I am not comparing the service level to that of the Harley shops (because they suck too) but at the very least the parts and dealerships are more readily available. Is it really a good idea to buy a bike when a part might take a month to get to your local shop?

3. The resale value of these BMWs seem significantly lower than I would have expected. I haven't done any real analysis or comparison but if I pay $16,000 for a new bike, then add another $1,000 on bags and another $1,000 on misc add ons I've got $18,000 in a a brand new bike. Not bad, right? I see bikes that are 3 years old with low mileage and these items going for as low as $8,000 or so....What gives? I saw a 2007 GSA with 8k miles and Aerotech bags and top case for $13,500.....Why so cheap (besides the fact that it had probably been on its side a time or two)?

4. Why are you limiting your consideration to the R12R and not the R12GS or GSA? I feel that I could get rid of 3 Harleys and replace them with one GS(A). Besides pure aesthetics, why would anyone choose the R12R over the R12GS(A)? ....I realize its much prettier but thats not the reason we buy motorcycles is it?

5. The maintenance looks like most of it is doable especially if the instructional DVD is all its cracked up to be but my question is how what is the true cost of ownership? Will I have to buy many new specialty tools? Is a good set of metric tools going to get me through most maintenance jobs? What other costs are out there that I'm not thinking about? Is insurance typically more or the same? Obviously, I will improve my fuel mileage...but at what cost?

Thats my $0.02....whut up?

[qgaex]

Hi Hilljack

All your arguments are very thoughtfull and fully valid.

Now just go there and do a test ride with the R12R to convince yourself that you are right.

(typically mean German snigger)

Cheers

qgaex
+relyingonthefataltestrideeffect+

[celticus]

"why would anyone choose the R12R over the R12GS(A)? ....I realize its much prettier but thats not the reason we buy motorcycles is it?"

Why would anyone choose the 12GS over the 12R? What the heck is the difference in a GS and a GSA?
Mark

[WILDPIG]

HILL JACK- MY MAN,, ive owned harleys 40+ yrs an do my own wrenchin up to an including hi performance motor re-builds. plz plz plz-- you mentioned shovelheads but failed to mention labor intensive? snicker snicker-- this old wildpig cant be fooled. next -- ever try hi speed touring on any harley including a twin cam? again-- 75mph dont qualify as hi speed touring., fact is-- at substained 80+ the hd will not,, let me say that again --will not hold together. WHO SAID THAT- I SAID THAT-- IM WILDPIG AN I DONT STUTTER. now dont get me wrong-- i love,, absolutley love my harleys-- but i am wise enuff to know an admit thier short comings-- an harley does have many. prolly not even correct to compare a bmw vs hd,,,,,, generally 2 different types of bikes an 2 different styles of riding. ALWAYS REMMEBER-- you can count on old wildpig to keep it straight---. i have the best o both worlds hi horse power chopped harleys an now an r 1200 r..,, my butt likes me better already for the smoothness of the boxer.

[Dan-A]

"why would anyone choose the R12R over the R12GS(A)? ....I realize its much prettier but thats not the reason we buy motorcycles is it?"

Why would anyone choose the 12GS over the 12R? What the heck is the difference in a GS and a GSA?
Mark

Don't know if this is a rhetorical question or not, so I will answer it from my perspective.

The R is a simple stripped roadster, fast, handles like a sport bike. The GS is dual sport, also fast and handles well, and can go on dirt roads, and for the accomplished adventure rider, even single track trails.

The GSA is a tarted up GS which has a larger gas tank, extra lights, and some additional more aggressive adventure (read dirt capability) features.

The GSA is also much heavier, and more top heavy so for guys like me with 30" inseam, a challenge at stop lights.

As to why to choose one over the other? If you can only own one motorcycle for whatever reason, the GS is much more versatile, so may make a better choice. If you have no interest in dirt roads or other off pavement riding, the R might make a better choice.

Beyond that, go ride them both as the ergonomics of each bike are different. For me the GS was competent and capable, and a big yawn to ride. The seating position/handlebars etc just didn't fit me (although I have sat on an 08 now and really like the ergos).

I even rode the K1200S which is way faster, but I thought it felt top heavy at slow speeds, and I wanted a boxer twin.

Truth be told, of all the bikes I test rode at A & S the only one that left me grinning from ear to ear was the R1200R. Light, nimble, fast, stump pulling torque, sport bike handling and seemingly limitless acceleration.

[deilenberger]

I'll just add to the excellent stuff Dan wrote:

As to why to choose one over the other? If you can only own one motorcycle for whatever reason, the GS is much more versatile, so may make a better choice. If you have no interest in dirt roads or other off pavement riding, the R might make a better choice.

Although Chitown puts the "need a GS" for off-road to rest. Do a look at some of his trip reports, with extensive off-road travel on his Roadster. I somehow doubt that he'd even want to trade it for a GS.. it seems to work just great for this use.

FWIW - I've found it is one of the easiest to ride BMW's I've ridden on non-pavement (gravel, dirt parking lots).. other ones I have owned tended to plow at low speed, trying to turn the front wheel in. I have experienced none of that with the R12R, which greatly adds to my confidence in riding it in sub-optimal conditions.

Truth be told, of all the bikes I test rode at A & S the only one that left me grinning from ear to ear was the R1200R. Light, nimble, fast, stump pulling torque, sport bike handling and seemingly limitless acceleration.

As happened to about all of us.. "PermaGrin" - it still puts a grin on my face every time I get on it..

[celticus]

"why would anyone choose the R12R over the R12GS(A)? ....I realize its much prettier but thats not the reason we buy motorcycles is it?"

Why would anyone choose the 12GS over the 12R? What the heck is the difference in a GS and a GSA?
Mark

The GSA is a tarted up GS which has a larger gas tank, extra lights, and some additional more aggressive adventure (read dirt capability) features.

Well DUH on me. GS A For Adventure. I can be so dense. Forgive me.
Mark

[Dan-A]

FWIW - I've found it is one of the easiest to ride BMW's I've ridden on non-pavement (gravel, dirt parking lots).. other ones I have owned tended to plow at low speed, trying to turn the front wheel in. I have experienced none of that with the R12R, which greatly adds to my confidence in riding it in sub-optimal conditions.

No disrespect intended, but there is no realistic comparison to what you can do on a GS, or GSA in the dirt vs. an R. If you have to take some unexpected dirt road on the R you can make it, but some of us nut jobs seek out the gravel, sand, dirt, rocks, water up to the knees etc...... that would trash a Roadster.

There are issues of suspension travel, ground clearance, skid plates, tires, foot peg type and location, and ergos for riding standing up. Here are some examples from a Death Valley Trip earlier this year, I'm riding a KLR 650 on Dunlop D606 knobbies and there were a number of GS's on this ride.: http://gallery.mac.com/dan.albertson/100268, places I would not want to take my R.

[deilenberger]

FWIW - I've found it is one of the easiest to ride BMW's I've ridden on non-pavement (gravel, dirt parking lots).. other ones I have owned tended to plow at low speed, trying to turn the front wheel in. I have experienced none of that with the R12R, which greatly adds to my confidence in riding it in sub-optimal conditions.

No disrespect intended, but there is no realistic comparison to what you can do on a GS, or GSA in the dirt vs. an R. If you have to take some unexpected dirt road on the R you can make it, but some of us nut jobs seek out the gravel, sand, dirt, rocks, water up to the knees etc...... that would trash a Roadster.

Sorry - it seems you're thinking I'm attacking a GS.. (GS people always seem to get defensive when it's suggested that a "lesser" bike might do OK off-road..) No, I'm simply saying that a Roadster is much more competent off-road than most people give it credit. I'm guessing you haven't followed the adventures of ChiTown (my hero for off-road on a Roadster)...

Suggested really fun reading:

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthre ... ht=chitown

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthre ... ht=chitown

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthre ... ht=chitown

I'd have to say ChiTown qualifies as a nut job who seeks out "gravel, sand, dirt, rocks, water up to the knees etc".. and does it all on a Roadster. And he goes, takes photos and comes back. Without being on a GS.

Go figure..

There are issues of suspension travel, ground clearance, skid plates, tires, foot peg type and location, and ergos for riding standing up. Here are some examples from a Death Valley Trip earlier this year, I'm riding a KLR 650 on Dunlop D606 knobbies and there were a number of GS's on this ride.: http://gallery.mac.com/dan.albertson/100268, places I would not want to take my R.

I'm sure these are nice, they're nice photos - and that the GS does it quite well, but.. why not invite ChiTown along next time. Looks like his kinda riding.

I learned a long time ago - a great rider on a good bike can run circles around a good rider on a great bike. And most can run circles around me. Took a few dirt bike courses with Malcolm Smith back in the late '70's - that man can ride anything, anywhere, and make it look easy. I suspect ChiTown has a similar talent, and the notion that the bike shouldn't limit the ride or rider. If I was 30 years younger I think I'd enjoy joining him on one of his little rides.

[Dan-A]

I'd have to say ChiTown qualifies as a nut job who seeks out "gravel, sand, dirt, rocks, water up to the knees etc".. and does it all on a Roadster. And he goes, takes photos and comes back. Without being on a GS.

I looked at his photos. Truly impressive, he goes places people I know WITH a GS wouldn't go. He is a real candidate for a GS if there ever was one... And I didn't take it as an attack.

I'm sure these are nice, they're nice photos - and that the GS does it quite well, but.. why not invite ChiTown along next time. Looks like his kinda riding.

He is invited, and so are you! It is an annual event. I have been twice, and though I left in a tow truck this year, I will go back next year and hope my
F(ound) O(n) R(oad) D(ead) truck makes it home.

More info here: http://www.dvdaze.org/forum/

[Hilljack]

OK ....OK already, I get it about the differences from the R to the GS. Thanks to all that responded with good feedback. Both are capable but I'm less concerned about that particular item than I am about the others issues I mentioned in my post.

1. Why all the posts about low mileage breakdowns? Everything from immobilizations systems to brake lines to clutch issues....seems to be way too many low mileage issues for this caliber of bike.......why is that?

2. Why is it so difficult to find a dealership that is actually clued in on all the "glitches" and "recalls"? Do reputable, independent experts exist in this world? How does a new BMW owner go about connecting with one?

3. Why is the resale value so low on these bikes?

4. Are parts readily available? Is it really a good idea to buy a bike when a part might take a month or so to get to you or your dealership?

5. How does the total cost of ownership compare to that of HD? If I do most of the maintenance myself will I need many specialty tools? Will I need a whole new tool set?

If you need to put these questions into context, please see my original post.
Thanks again.

[Dr Grabow]

I'm going to jump in - my "credentials" are that I've had 4 Harleys (Sportster, V-rod, Softail Deluxe, and Electra-Glide) and 5 BMWs (K1200S, R1200R, F650GS, R1200GS). Currently have the R1200R and F650GS. I've also had Ducatis, Kawasakis, Suzukis, but that's another story.

Note, for starters, that I've sold the Harleys.

First, I've *never* had a breakdown with a BMW. I've never been stranded. Never had one with a Harley either, to be fair. Modern motorcycles are very reliable, no matter who makes them (don't know about the Chinese...). The internet effect is that rare isolated problems get way more play than what reflects reality. I think that to be worried about *any* modern motorcycle being unsound by design is unnecessary.

Second, there are 3 letters that make a BMW worth every penny - "ABS"! Yeah, Harley offers a few models with ABS now but every BMW other than their dirt bikes has it as either an option or standard. It will save your life in the right situation. For me, that alone is a sale.

Third, the R1200GS is very top-heavy and even with a low seat it's quite a stretch to the ground for a 30" inseam like me. I sold the 1200GS and have a 650GS, and I've done *way* more offroad/fire trails/mountain trail riding than I ever did with the 1200GS. This is not a knock against the 1200GS, but it's not the universal motorcycle some make it out to be.

Last, the R1200R has a unique feel. BMW just got it right with this one. The weight, center of gravity, steering geometry, riding position, power, and looks are just perfect. It also has the best brakes of *any* motorcycle I've ever ridden. As has been pointed out many times here, it's a great combination of fun and practical. And I don't shy away from dirt and gravel roads on it (and there are plenty of those here in Wyoming!).

Just my .02. Hope this helps in a small way.

[Dr Grabow]

Whoops, forgot to add that I had a K1200LT. Now THAT was a topheavy pig of a bike...

[deilenberger]

OK ....OK already, I get it about the differences from the R to the GS. Thanks to all that responded with good feedback. Both are capable but I'm less concerned about that particular item than I am about the others issues I mentioned in my post.

1. Why all the posts about low mileage breakdowns? Everything from immobilizations systems to brake lines to clutch issues....seems to be way too many low mileage issues for this caliber of bike.......why is that?

It's the Internet Amplifier - people don't post about things not breaking. There are lots of us riding the bikes without any problems. My total warranty claims in 12k miles has been for one 5mm screw from a hinge on one saddlebag.

2. Why is it so difficult to find a dealership that is actually clued in on all the "glitches" and "recalls"? Do reputable, independent experts exist in this world? How does a new BMW owner go about connecting with one?

There are some exceptionally good dealerships. Post where you are and ask for a recommendation. As far as independents - sure - they're around. Join a local club - the members will be able to suggest someone.

3. Why is the resale value so low on these bikes?

It is? It's not HD silly - but it's not awful. I've seen used ones going for $12.5k or so - one year old. That's on a bike that was $15k out the showroom door. Not awful 1st year depreciation, great if compared to a $15k car..

4. Are parts readily available? Is it really a good idea to buy a bike when a part might take a month or so to get to you or your dealership?

Parts are readily available - even for bikes 30 years old. The usual parts are no problem, and once BMW catches up with things - oddballs like the antenna ring now seem readily available. BMW has "VOR" shipping - costs the dealer about $2 extra if they abuse it - free if they don't. It's "Vehicle Off Road" - which is overnight shipping to any dealer if the part is in the USA, and ~3 day shipping from Germany if not. A good dealer knows when to use it. I had a headlight get cracked while on a long trip last spring. I was at a rally in MD - and called a dealer at around 4PM on Friday I knew was good (Morton's BMW in VA). They VOR'd a new headlight to their dealership.. it arrived on Saturday at the dealership, and was delivered to me at the rally on Saturday afternoon (a friend is the GM of the dealership..) That's what a good dealer can do for a customer. And I didn't buy the bike there, and there was no additional charge for the exceptional service.

5. How does the total cost of ownership compare to that of HD? If I do most of the maintenance myself will I need many specialty tools? Will I need a whole new tool set?

Dunno... haven't owned an HD in 35 years now. You'll need metric tools - and a good set of Torx drivers. Other than that - nothing special needed.

If you need to put these questions into context, please see my original post.
Thanks again.

No problem.