Clutch or Tranny Noise

[Eddiem]

Aloha all

It has been a while, been too busy at work.... I did some work on the bike this past weekend, retorqued head to 20 nm per specs and adjusted the valves also changed the oil and oil filter with 0w40 Mobil One 3.5 quarts and oil right on the center of the window.

Started my R1150 RS bike but noticed a weird noice that I believe is clutch related, it sounds like a knock but as soon as I depress the clutch just a little bit the noice stops. If I let the clutch go I hear the noice again...anyone knows what this is??? BTW I've replaced the tranny and final drive oils about 1000 miles ago.....did check the oil on both and it is Ok, right to the top.

Also I noticed another really weird noice when riding the bike, I usually don't ride without a helmet, but this time I was riding without one and noticed that when I gun the throtle the bike say on 3rd or 4th gear the bike makes this really weird noice....NO IT IS NOT pinging in case you think it is, it sounds like the timing chains or something like that....This noice only happens when I'm in 3rd 4th or 5th gear and I gun the bike....again I'm sure is not pinging....so don't go there...does anyone have any idead what this could be.....I can not hear the same noise with the helmet on but I DO Hear slight pinging for a very short moment when I let the revs drop way down and I hit the throtle on 3rd or 4th gear....BTW I do put 91 Octane gas on the thing....the pinging sound and this sound are different...the pinging sound has that weird metalic sound and the sound I'm refering to is like a grinding sound.....

If I gun the bike at iddle I do not hear the sound at all.....hope you guys can help.


Aloha

EM

[Capt. Blackadder]

Oh boy... if that is an accurate account of what you did, then I have some bad news: re-do the whole thing, and right now. Don't ride the bike another mile. The retorquing should be like this:

Tightening torque
After 1,000 km (600 miles), tighten cylinder head nuts in diagonally opposite sequence:

1. Slacken one nut
2. Tighten nut to initial torque ..................... 20 Nm
3. Tighten nut to wrench angle....................... 180 degrees
4. Slacken and retighten M 10 screw.......... 40 Nm

As for the 0w40-weight oil, that's far too thin. Dump that immediately. You live in Hawaii, so you can run 20w-50 all year round. The clutch-related tranny knocking sound is normal, I think. My bike does the same thing. If you used 75w-90 oil, maybe 75w-140 would help.

I'm serious, man... don't even start the bike up until you change the oil and re-torque the heads properly.

[Eddiem]

Captain

Thanks for the reply...I followed the instructions on the BMW video where it indicates that the 4 head bolts need to be tighten in a cross pattern at 20 nm, I noticed that M10 screw was so super tight that I was afraid to break so I did not retorqued the m10 screw.

I did do the cross patern on all screws at 20nm or 14.7 Ft/Lb but did not do the 180 degree nut to wrech angle simply because I don't have the tool.....I wonder why is it necessary to torque the screws at 180 degree nut angle???

Regarding the oil I'm a bit confused I realize that 0W40 oil is a multigrade oil and that is designed to work at low ambient temperatures the way I understand is that the 0 viscosity weight will cover the engine under really cold conditions and the 40 Weight side will cover me with hot conditions, I have no problem replacing the oil but was a bit confused about the viscosity and protection of the oil.


Aloha

EM

[boxermania]

Eddiem

Get away from the 0-40W oil.....Capt. B is absolutely correct on his call and don't lug the engine either or you will hear the pinging as well.

[FloridaNative]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but you don't need a special tool to do the wrench angle. Just put a flex/breaker bar (not a ratchet) on the socket on the nut to be tightened. Note which way the handle is pointing. Tighten it so the handle is now pointing the exact opposite direction. That will give you a 180 degree wrench angle. You could use a ratchet, just make sure you don't go backwards while doing the final 180 degree tightening (no clicks!).

[Ves]

Captain

...
I did do the cross patern on all screws at 20nm or 14.7 Ft/Lb but did not do the 180 degree nut to wrech angle simply because I don't have the tool.....I wonder why is it necessary to torque the screws at 180 degree nut angle???

Regarding the oil I'm a bit confused I realize that 0W40 oil is a multigrade oil and that is designed to work at low ambient temperatures the way I understand is that the 0 viscosity weight will cover the engine under really cold conditions and the 40 Weight side will cover me with hot conditions, I have no problem replacing the oil but was a bit confused about the viscosity and protection of the oil.


Aloha

EM

Taken from here: http://www.atis.net/oil_faq.html

"Multi viscosity oils work like this: Polymers are added to a light base (5W, 10W, 20W), which prevent the oil from thinning as much as it warms up. At cold temperatures the polymers are coiled up and allow the oil to flow as their low numbers indicate. As the oil warms up the polymers begin to unwind into long chains that prevent the oil from thinning as much as it normally would. The result is that at 100 degrees C the oil has thinned only as much as the higher viscosity number indicates. Another way of looking at multi-vis oils is to think of a 20W-50 as a 20 weight oil that will not thin more than a 50 weight would when hot.

Multi viscosity oils are one of the great improvements in oils, but they should be chosen wisely. Always use a multi grade with the narrowest span of viscosity that is appropriate for the temperatures you are going to encounter. In the winter base your decision on the lowest temperature you will encounter, in the summer, the highest temperature you expect. The polymers can shear and burn forming deposits that can cause ring sticking and other problems. 10W-40 and 5W-30 require a lot of polymers (synthetics excluded) to achieve that range. This has caused problems in diesel engines, but fewer polymers are better for all engines. The wide viscosity range oils, in general, are more prone to viscosity and thermal breakdown due to the high polymer content. It is the oil that lubricates, not the additives. Oils that can do their job with the fewest additives are the best."

You should read the whole thing... bottom line... you do not need to run a 0 weight in Hawaii? Has Global Warming gotten so bad that Hawaii is freezing now?... I think it actually shows you in the owners manual, with a chart, what oils should be used with what temperatures.

As for tightening the bolts 180 degrees... you don't need a tool... what ever direction your torque wrench is facing when you get to torque, just turn the screw half a turn more (that's 180 degrees)... That 180 degrees is definitely necessary... it pre-stresses the bolt to the correct level so it can prevent the pressure of the cylinder from leaking past your seals. It's just like preload on your shock... with more load you need higher preload.

[Eddiem]

Ves

I love your response!...It's snowing here in Hawaii....no.....the only reason I bought the darn 0W40 wight oil is because I live in a remote area of town and that was the only Syn oil they had at the store I purchased it at.....I do know that the 0 weight side of the oil is designed to work at below 0 conditions...but I thought I was ok because it is a multi viscosity oil.....

The good part is that I only drove the bike less than 10 miles....so I hope that I did not cause any damage to the engine....

Regarding the torke on the screws you mentioned the 180 degree turn after you achieve 20 nm....I did that just can not say that it is exactly 180 degrees because as Mentioned I don't have the tool that indicates the actual degrees....

What I will do is I will use a compass and mark the socket and then proceed to go 180 degrees or 1/2 turn from the mark I place of the socket....I think that should do it.

Again...thanks for all the responses.

Aloha

EM

[Capt. Blackadder]

Eddie,

If that BMW video doesn't mention the final 180 degrees of torqueing, then that's a bad omission. After the initial 20Nm torque, that final half-a-revolution twist of each head nut is necessary to put the correct pressure on the head gasket and seal the combustion chamber properly. Those four head nuts are the main head fasteners and if they are torqued too lightly, then that's most likely the reason the M10 bolts are super tight.

Like the others have pointed out, no special tool is necessary for the 180 degree torqueing, just a simple breaker bar. I wouldn't use a torque wrench for this. You will be putting pretty serious pressure on the bar, and a torque wrench could get damaged. Oil the head nut threads before doing the torqueing again. After the initial 20Nm torque, start with the breaker bar pointed straight up, start twisting and don't stop until it points straight down. When you're done with all four head nuts, try the M10 bolt again. Use a breaker bar to loosen it and a torque wrench to tighten.

If you have your bike's user manual that should really be your bible in terms of oil and such. If you don't have it, you can safely use any good quality name-brand 20w-50 motorcycle oil with an SF, SG or SH rating.

[Arbreacames]

Eddie, I think that the head bolts should only be re-tightened at the initial 600-mile service. Otherwise, that final 1/2 turn could overtighten them.

[Capt. Blackadder]

Carlos, the following is copied straight out of the repair manual:

1. Tighten cylinder head nuts (oiled) in diagonally opposite sequence:
1.1 Tighten all nuts ...................................... 20 Nm
1.2 Tighten all nuts to correct angle...................90 degrees
1.3 Tighten all nuts to correct angle...................90 degrees
2. M 10 screw............................................ 40 Nm
3. M 6 screw................................................ 9 Nm

After 1,000 km (600 miles), tighten cylinder head nuts in diagonally opposite sequence:
1. Slacken one nut
2. Tighten nut to initial torque ..................... 20 Nm
3. Tighten nut to wrench angle....................... 180°
4. Slacken and retighten M 10 screw.......... 40 Nm


The first section is the initial assembly, and the second section is the retorqueing after 600 miles. Note that both sections mention angle torqueing of a total of 180 degrees. This is essential.

Retorqueing shouldn't be necessary after the first 600 miles if all remains well, but sometimes head gaskets have to be replaced. When that's necessary, one should follow the first section above when doing the initial head reassembly, and the second section 600 miles after that.

[Eddiem]

All

I know the retorking of the heads is supposed to be at 1000 KM or 600 Miles, the issue is that I bought the bike used and it looks like this was never done, the guy that I purchased the bike from moved from North Carolina to Hawaii and the retorking was never done. So I decided to do it thinking that I had the right tools and the experience having torqued car heads a few times.

I will retorque the heads this weekend and I've already purchased Castrol 20W50 oil to replace the oil in there.

Aloha!

EM

[Ves]

Ves

Regarding the torke on the screws you mentioned the 180 degree turn after you achieve 20 nm....I did that just can not say that it is exactly 180 degrees because as Mentioned I don't have the tool that indicates the actual degrees....

EM

Close enough in my book... but can't hurt to practice, right?

[CycleRob]

I don't see a problem with the 0W-40 Mobil-1 Synthetic oil for what you say is mostly just 10 mile trips. Even in hot weather, it's still better than a conventional 20W-50 oil since you mentioned it was the only synthetic oil available you could find. The zero first number seems to be freaking everybody out, but it just means it will flow like hot oil when the engine is cold - - - - A really GOOD thing. The 2nd number, 40, is the viscosity at 210degF (99C).

Oil that stays in your bike for 6,000 miles is going to have viscosity breakdown thinning out of it's original 20W-50 rating, possibly approaching 0W-35. Nobody worries about that.

Mobil-1 is prolly one of the highest quality synthetics out there and the 0W-40 viscosity is just a little off the recommended viscosity range, NOT something so bad you need to drain it out !!

I'd run it then drain it after 2,000 miles.

.

[boxermania]

Dissent breeds open communication.....

Even in hot weather, it's still better than a conventional 20W-50 oil since you mentioned it was the only synthetic oil available you could find.

I will be hard pressed to accept the statement, the key words being "hot weather" and "better" , it does have superior lubricity and higher temperature tolerance if the application so requires it.....but that alone does not make it better.

The zero first number seems to be freaking everybody out, but it just means it will flow like hot oil when the engine is cold - - - - A really GOOD thing. The 2nd number, 40, is the viscosity at 210degF (99C).

It means it will be easier flowing while the engine is cold with the viscosity being very low, but never 0 as that is a physical impossibility of multigrade oils at both extremes. That being said, the 2nd number has exactly the same meaning as the 1st number and that is the viscosity at 210F.

Oil that stays in your bike for 6,000 miles is going to have viscosity breakdown thinning out of it's original 20W-50 rating, possibly approaching 0W-35. Nobody worries about that.

The viscosity breakdown is the result of the additive package in the oil being spent (used-up) at which point the combustion byproducts begin to contaminate the oil and in effect reducing the viscosity. It has been well documented that additive package breakdown occurs anywhere from 1500 to 2000 miles of running; at that point the oil viscosity begins to suffer. Personally, I don't know if used oil would be close to 0W-35 after a normal period of use, but I will research the answer; however, one would like to think that the OEM service recommendations have been based on sound engineering principles and consultation with oil manufacturers.

In closing, there is absolutely nothing wrong using dino 20W-50 on any vehicle as long as it is within the specified range and serviced as recommended by the OEM.

[Eddiem]

Aloha All

Loosend and retorqued the heads this weekend, torqued with a digital torque wrench at 20 nM in cross pattern applying the 180 degree nut/angle spec, also was able to break the M10 screws and re torqued them to 40nM per the specs.....I had a hell of a time breaking the 2 M10 screws, they were so tight....but was able to pray and loosen them....then retorque them....

Also Re-did a valve adjustment on the thing AFTER the retorque....rode the bike....heard the weird noise.....not present in 1-2 or 3rd gear only when on 4th gear onwards...at low RPMS and if I load (gun) the throtle....It is not pinging of that I'm sure....I'm begining to think is something in the drive train side....

Any how...I don't hear knocking as bottom end (cranckshaft) knock....or pinging whatever this noice is I'll live with it, I knwo I have PLENTY of oil pressure, and I know the timing is right...Checked with a timing light with the vacum hoses disconnected....so I have no idea what the noise is....

Aloha

EM

[Airman]

The 0w40 Mobil 1 bothered me as well as most of the rest of you. You can buy 15-50 Mobil 1 which is what I intend to do on my next change. The only reason I would ever run oil below 15 is if there was a question of starting. I run 15w50 GTX in my bike year round and the temps will vary from the low 30's to the mid 90's. (rarely) One of my reasons for wanting to switch to Mobil 1 is the ease of starting in cold weather. The GTX cranks slow when it approaches 30 degrees.I guess my point is that there is no reason to run zero based oil, and maybe some not to. When I was working in Minneapolis in `06 I used 5w20 in the van. That's the standard oil for sub-zero climates. I would be interested in knowing if the 0w40 actually has advantages or if it's just marketing.

Eddiem, what rpm do you hear the clanking noise ? If you were running at 4000 and whacked the throttle, would it do it ? The only time I can reall having a noise like that was when I REALLY lugged the engine.

[Arbreacames]

Checked with a timing light with the vacum hoses disconnected

Ooooh.... I used to do it like that too on my 1976 Triumph TR7. That's not the correct way on a boxer, though.
You are supposed to check timing statically. On trick is to use the triggering of the fuel pump at TDC. Search for the method somewhere on the board.

I understand that you are not hearing pinging, but it sure quacks like one...

[Eddiem]

Eddiem, what rpm do you hear the clanking noise ? If you were running at 4000 and whacked the throttle, would it do it ? The only time I can reall having a noise like that was when I REALLY lugged the engine.

Airman....no it makes that weird noise at lower RPM's if Im just putting along say 2K RPMS on 4th gear and I goose the throtle I hear the noise. Again is not Pinging for those of you that think that it is...It sounds like it is comming from the timing chains or something like that....

Aloha

EM

[Eddiem]

Checked with a timing light with the vacum hoses disconnected

Ooooh.... I used to do it like that too on my 1976 Triumph TR7. That's not the correct way on a boxer, though.
You are supposed to check timing statically. On trick is to use the triggering of the fuel pump at TDC. Search for the method somewhere on the board.

I understand that you are not hearing pinging, but it sure quacks like one...

Carlos

You crack me up...I knew this was not the correct way to check the timing but i wanted to know if I at least could see the TDC mark when I connected the timing light and Cyl#1 I took the little gromitt from the vieweing window... and voala....I could see the TDC mark at idle every time....

I remember I think Boxermania telling me that you could check the timing with a timing light but we never got the update as of how....BTW disconnecting the vacume hoses and plugging them did not seem to make a difference at Iddle speed....

Aloha

EM

[jas]

Airman....no it makes that weird noise at lower RPM's if Im just putting along say 2K RPMS on 4th gear and I goose the throtle I hear the noise. Again is not Pinging for those of you that think that it is...It sounds like it is comming from the timing chains or something like that....

Aloha

EM

I'm experiencing the same thing as well. When I tool around (speed of 10-45) and rapidly apply throttle I get an odd clatter off the right side, from what appears to be the head. A high pitched, rapid, clapping type sound. So, when throttle is first applied the bike accelerates followed by the "odd" sound for about 2 seconds and then back to normal. Usually only occurs when the bike has been ridden for a while and is nice and hot.
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