Mechanics 101

[mogu83]

This came up on another thread. Not wanting to hijack the thread I figured we could discus it here.

I'm surprised this forum doesn't have a disclaimer about people trying to do some of the mechanical and electrical type things suggested on this list. On another thread I suggested that a member just take his bike to a mechanic and pay to have the work done. It may have been taken wrong.
Some of us have earned a living by working on bikes and cars and I think a few have even held a Withworth wrench in their hands. Others have little or no experience, and their is nothing wrong with that. Trying to explain how a bolt feels just before it strips out the threads or that squeaking noise right before a bolt breaks on an internet list is impossible. Things like that can only be learned by striping out a lot of threads and snapping a bunch of bolts. Most of my early experience was on vehicles that were worth only a few hundred dollars, some went to the junk yard after I "fixed" them, many new parts were destroyed while being installed.
I'm personally extremely hesitant to encourage someone with limited experience to attack a $15/$20 K vehicle with wire cutters and a few open end wrenches. Generally I put enough in the post so that a person that 'knows' can fill in the blanks, some of the stuff we discuss isn't as easy as it sounds and a mistake could put your bike on a trailer on it's way to the dealer. If someone doesn't feel comfortable attempting do some of the procedures mentioned here and they would like to learn, I would suggest they find a friendly local mechanic and ask if they could watch and if he could explain what he's doing. Most guys (at least in a small shop) would have no problem with that.

A quote from another Harry comes to mind: " A man's got to know his limitations."

[enderw88]

I recently had the opportunity to teach a young man down the street some basic mechanics. He had taken his car to a local Speedy Lube and they had cross threaded the drain plug resulting in an annoying leak. To make matters even worse they stripped the base of the bolt so that it wouldn't easily unscrew from its fitting. I have never been a fan of the various thread repair schemes, and as his car is fairly common in scrap yards, I offered to find a used pan in a yard and help him replace it. I figured it would take me an hour if I was going slow, so I figure four hours with a student. He is a reasonably intelligent, if completely inexperienced kid, yet I relearned more from teaching him than he got out of the whole experience.

1. Yes, I can tell whether a bolt is just a bit stiff coming out, or truly prolematic. Ditto for insertion.
2. Righty tighty, lefty loosy is no longer common knowledge, and being able to figure it out blind from behind is akin to differential calculus.
3. Knowing what to take apart to get to something else is not common sense.
4. Knowing when to quit and think of a different approach is not easy.
5. Putting counter torque on a wrench isn't obvious.
6. Wrench tight is truly a feel. Especially when you have no manual.
7. You can't teach this stuff, it has to be learned first hand, with someone there to hopefully pull you back from the brink before you do something expensively wrong.
8. Jobs I think are trivial are "the hardest thing I have ever done"!!!
9. I am truly grateful for my father and my next door neighbor who taught me all this stuff when I was growing up. I also appreciate every busted knuckle, broken bolt and stripped thread I have ever had. I really feel sorry for people that look at a machine and see a mystery, or a repair bill...

P.S. can someone convince my tightwad self to just go and buy the damn bike...I haven't convinced my self that a new bike is better than the one I have already paid for...(ancient K75)

[thepeacebullgrunt]

Thanks Mogu but if you know so well mechanic why don't you organize a get together with your friends to write a detailed pedagogic document about "How to Install electrical add-ons on the R1200R" instead of endlessly spinning around the bucket... trough hundreds of fragmented informations about the same topic.

It will help to vulgarize and facilitate clear understanding of the procedures.

Concerning electrical add-ons Most of the Mechanics I visited contradict what is written in this forum...sometimes just by ignorance or conservatism and often are ok to do it even reluctantly as long as you pay them.

[snag]

Enderw88,

If I can add:

One of the biggest lessons for me has been the lack of torque it takes to properly tighten a fastener. Typically, when you don't think that it's tight enough and another quarter turn should do it, you've probably already over-torqued it. A good torque wrench is a must have in any toolbox. We had a torque demonstration at our vintage motorcycle club one night; 10 lbs to 50 lbs in 10 lb increments. After each torquing, the bolt length was measured with a micrometer. The bolt stretched with each re-torquing, and stayed stretched. If I remember right, the final result was about 20 thou longer. It was a real lesson in restraint, torque-wise at least.

The K75 Hannigan is one sweet looking bike! If it still puts a smile on your face I would add, not replace.

Doug

[ErikM]

Fred.. The answer is, and I apologize for speaking for Harry , but seriously do you really think Harry or anyone else has the free time to do something like that? I mean come on Fred you don't even seem to have the time to use the search functions on this site or use google to get half the answers to the screwy question that you ask and you expect someone to take hours and hours to put together a what, encyclopedia on how to work on an R12R. Do you plan on reimbursing Harry for his time?? If you want to work on your bike try just doing it.. maybe start with something simple like changing the oil, and work your way up. I think folks here are glad to help you out, but you gotta try helping yourself first.

Thanks Mogu but if you know so well mechanic why don't you organize a get together with your friends to write a detailed pedagogic document about "How to Install electrical add-ons on the R1200R" instead of endlessly spinning around the bucket... trough hundreds of fragmented informations about the same topic.

It will help to vulgarize and facilitate clear understanding of the procedures.

Concerning electrical add-ons Most of the Mechanics I visited contradict what is written in this forum...sometimes just by ignorance or conservatism and often are ok to do it even reluctantly as long as you pay them.

[deilenberger]

P.S. can someone convince my tightwad self to just go and buy the damn bike...I haven't convinced my self that a new bike is better than the one I have already paid for...(ancient K75)

Are you planning on living forever? If so - tell us your secret. If not - there is no time like the present to award yourself for getting this far and being able to consider a new bike.

A good friend with some nasty health problems asked me that when I was thinking over buying the R12R. I thank him for that advice frequently.. and hope to for a long time to come. He's now riding my old K75S.. (which is a very special S..)

[enderw88]

The K75 Hannigan is one sweet looking bike! If it still puts a smile on your face I would add, not replace.

Adding is not an option with SWMBO.

Are you planning on living forever? If so - tell us your secret. If not - there is no time like the present to award yourself for getting this far and being able to consider a new bike.

A good friend with some nasty health problems asked me that when I was thinking over buying the R12R. I thank him for that advice frequently.. and hope to for a long time to come. He's now riding my old K75S.. (which is a very special S..)

Good point...

[parkec]

for those of us educated in the great state of florida

Withworth wrench = used with a British Fastening Systems (think SAE or Metric, but British/Jaguar/Lucas)
http://www.enginehistory.org/british_fasteners.htm


detailed pedagogic document = detailed teaching documents http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pedagogical

[Trout]

Some of us have earned a living by working on bikes and cars and I think a few have even held a Withworth wrench in their hands... Trying to explain how a bolt feels just before it strips out the threads or that squeaking noise right before a bolt breaks on an internet list is impossible. Things like that can only be learned by striping out a lot of threads and snapping a bunch of bolts... I'm personally extremely hesitant to encourage someone with limited experience to attack a $15/$20 K vehicle with wire cutters and a few open end wrenches.

This is a good post. I've often thought the very same things over the years on these various motorcycle websites. There is so much that I want to add ... there are so many memories of "firsts" such as stripping threads and breaking bolts.

I remember the first time I:

Stripped a bolt
Broke a bolt
Broke a spark plug off in a head
Tried to weld cast iron with oxy/acetelyne
Put so much air in a tire trying to seat the bead that it broke the bead (I'm glad I'm still alive)
Tried to make an engine run by dribbling gas into the carb out of a Coke bottle and had the engine backfire into my Coke bottle
Removed a lug nut held on with blue RTV
Removed a drain plug held in with blue RTV
Dropped a car off a lift

Experience is truly the best teacher, but the key is not getting too much of this experience on your own expensive stuff.

[enderw88]

Experience is truly the best teacher, but the key is not getting too much of this experience on your own expensive stuff.

In light of the original poster, I commend anyone with interest to try to work on their machines. Over the long haul you will save money, and learn a lot. That won't make it feel better when you earn an expensive lesson, but those lessons are YOURS!!!

[mogu83]

I thought some of the old guys would like the Withworth reference, most people that held one at one time or the other also knows what it was like to go to school/work the next day with hands that wouldn't come completely clean and grease under their fingernails. I wonder when they stopped using withworth hardware on stuff?

The pedagogic document caused me to go to google also. I guess I was laying under a car or kneeling beside a bike when I should have been building my supply of adjectives.

Trouts list of blunders brought a smile to my face as I've done most of them. Here's one that will date me:
Night and Weekend job when I was still in High School (you were expected to have a job back then): A guy came in with a HUDSON for a grease job. It was the first time I used a frame contact lift. I drove the car over the lift and then positioned the arms under the car. Imagine my surprise when I raised the lift and lifted the body off the frame. The customer didn't see this so I slowly lowered it back down and as far as I know the owner didn't experience any problems. Now that was an experience.

AS far as writing a book, even if their was a large financial reward I don't thing I'd waste any of the time I have left doing it. Too many other things to do.

Good experience quote: "I know a man that grabbed a cat by the tail and he learned 40% more about cats than the man who didn't" Mark Twain

BTW:Their is no subject to this thread so jump in.

[famousperson]

I appreciate Harry's thoughtful post. I've stripped my share of threads while wielding a Whitworth wrench (think Matchless 650, Sunbeam Tiger), and sheared my share of bolts. I have also worked exaustively around batteries and electronics with plenty of hands-on wire work. In other words, I have metaphorically busted enough knuckles to be able to say this: I am retired, I no longer find wrenching relaxing; I bought the R for riding, pure and simple. If something breaks and I can't get it to a mechanic, sure I'll (attempt to) fix it myself--I have the tools-- but not as a matter of principle.

If anyone wants to sneer at me for this, fair enough; they're they and I'm me and it's my bike and my time. I'm busy working on my dissertation and in my garden. I think it's great that other people work on their bikes. In fact, I appreciate people like Don who work on his extensively enough to give us all detailed insight into how the R works, and others who are knowledgble enough through doing their own work and are willing to spend the time here explaining how to do things ourselves--in case we need or want to.

So let's all carry on carrying on, doing what we love, and getting our pleasure from our R1200Rs as we find it.

Peter

[hjsbmw]

My dad did his oil changes and other car repairs when I was little, so wanting to do the same was logical to me. I guess you learn by watching and doing.
This is not my first bike, and growing up took a while. I did all servicing in the past on other bikes myself. There were some valuable models in the below $1000 range like an XS400, SR500, GR650, all never newer than 8 years. The GR650 was 25 years old when I sold it and needed the toolbox taken out at least once a week at that point.
The point is I had some time to learn and mess around with bikes where it didn't matter financially, but also to build a collection of tools that are needed. My 2 cents here are to better buy a tool at a time that you know you need, and buy good quality. Sets look good under the Christmas tree but usually contain 80% stuff you won't use or have exactly the size you do need missing.
Some of my previous repair jobs included lots of safety wire, some self-made parts, and many trips to the local hardware store for replacement bolts. Experience is certainly a point but I like to think the confidence gained in the process is maybe even more valuable. If I did it in the past I must be able to do it again, right? Taking a set of carbs apart, cleaning them, reassembling them, and the bike starts is a pretty exhilarating feeling too.

Now that I am older and very wise and experienced I would not hesitate to work on the R. I am not looking for opportunities to do so but I think it's good to be able to help myself if the need arises. All in all I am very happy to be able to afford a machine that does not need the tools taken out once a week.

I don't know how I would feel if this was my first bike. I think l'd be brave enough to change my oil and adjust the valves though.

[ka5ysy]

P.S. can someone convince my tightwad self to just go and buy the damn bike...I haven't convinced my self that a new bike is better than the one I have already paid for...(ancient K75)

Here... have some RR Coolaid ... It is great !

[NeilS]

To everyone in on this thread, if you haven't already seen it, I thoroughly recommend a book by one dingle O'Kane entitled "How to Repair Your Foreign Car: a manual for the beginner, your wife, and the mechanically inept." Written before the days of CANbus and microcomputers, at a time when a typical shop labor rate was $7 an hour, I'm sure it's long out of print. But it's worth searching for: The old-pros will be amused and the newbies might learn something.

[thepeacebullgrunt]

To Mogu, Neils, Don and all the Mechanic Thread Dominator's !

Yesterday I recommended my old neighbor to cover is buick the way shown below.

Is it Ok ?

Or should I tell him to do it in a different way ?