Sticky Downshifting?

[Matthew Power]

hey all,

A question, hopefully not one with an expensive answer. I've got an '02 R1150RA, with 12,500 miles on the clock, just had a 12k service. It runs great, but I've noticed that the gear shifter sometimes sticks a bit in the lower gears, particularly downshifting between second and first. Double clutching smoothes it out (I just pull in the clutch twice, or tap the rear brake with a downshift, and it shifts smoothly.)

But reading some of these online boards, the two possibilities suggested are 1)air in the clutch master cylinder, or 2) the clutch splines need to be lubed.

What's the story with this second problem? Apparently, to lube the clutch splines, you have to take the bike completely apart to put a squirt of moly on the splines. Is there any way to do this without it being a huge job? Do you think that's the likely culprit with my sticky downshifting? How can you tell with out dismantling the whole thing? Is it damaging the bike? The sticky shifting doesn't happen all the time, and seems to happen less when the bike is really warmed up. Should I worry about it, or just keep riding?

thanks to whoever has suggestions,

Matt

[CycleRob]

I've got an '02 R1150RA, with 12,500 miles

I'd make the easy shots first. It sounds like it can be a dry and binding shifter on a 5 year old bike with too little mileage. Where it was stored, like the hostile environment of an outdoor shed, also can create corrosion related malfunctions. Take the whole footpeg assembly off so you can remove, clean & grease the shift lever's well hidden pivot bolt and both the linkage ball sockets.

[Malibu]

Thanks for the info posted here. I have a similar problem with my 02 R1150RA.
I seem to experience it more on a 4/3 or 3/2 downshift. I notice it more when it is hot.
I have spoken to three dealers in the Northwest and all suggest the spline lube but with no promise that will resolve the issue.
The $850 / $1,100 price tag causes me to want a little more assurance that it will in fact solve the problem.
Does anyone know of a way to determine if the shaft / spline lacks lube prior to splitting the bike?
Has anyone removed the starter? Seems like that may at least provide a look.

Thanks
Malibu

[scootrr]

Have you tried fussing with the three-way adjuster on the clutch lever?
I tried the "#1" setting and had the similar problems down-shifting once in a while. I adjusted it back to the "#2" setting and no problems since.

[ebincia]

hey all,

A question, hopefully not one with an expensive answer. I've got an '02 R1150RA, with 12,500 miles on the clock, just had a 12k service. It runs great, but I've noticed that the gear shifter sometimes sticks a bit in the lower gears, particularly downshifting between second and first. Double clutching smoothes it out (I just pull in the clutch twice, or tap the rear brake with a downshift, and it shifts smoothly.)

But reading some of these online boards, the two possibilities suggested are 1)air in the clutch master cylinder, or 2) the clutch splines need to be lubed.

What's the story with this second problem? Apparently, to lube the clutch splines, you have to take the bike completely apart to put a squirt of moly on the splines. Is there any way to do this without it being a huge job? Do you think that's the likely culprit with my sticky downshifting? How can you tell with out dismantling the whole thing? Is it damaging the bike? The sticky shifting doesn't happen all the time, and seems to happen less when the bike is really warmed up. Should I worry about it, or just keep riding?

thanks to whoever has suggestions,

Matt

First try to clean & grease the shift lever's well hidden pivot bolt and both the linkage ball sockets. I think this may solve your problem.

[MALIBU02]

I did open the clutch lever up to the longest setting to give the maximum clearance. No change.

I removed the left foot rest and lubricated the linkage. no change.

I discussed with a couple of dealers and it appears we will have to open it up and lube it. I'll keep my fingers crossed that the splines are OK.

I asked them if there was any way to remove the starter and get some lube onto the shaft. He said no because the clutch hub covers the part of the shaft that needs to be lubricated. You can't tell until it is opened up and clutch removed from the tranny shaft.
He took me into the shop to show me an RT that was torn down for the same issue. That one had let go because the splines were shot too. The owner had waited too long to address the issue.

If the Germans had just used a wet clutch we wouldn't have to go thru this!

My only break is a 20% discount for service work in January.

Thanks for the comments.

[TicTac50]

If the Germans had just used a wet clutch we wouldn't have to go thru this!.

Germans don't like to make HONDA

I had the same problem with my 2002, after I let it sit for about 8 months.
I fixed it just by riding the bike for about 1500 miles, before it started to downshift smoothly
It doesn't sound right to take the bike apart with only 12,500 miles.
I would ride it for about 1000 miles, before I start spending the money.
Good Luck!

[MALIBU02]

Good thought, but I've run 7,800 miles on it. Doesn't sit long in winter. any decent day it is out.

First owner only put 9,000 miles on in 7 years. Had to sit a lot then.

It looks great and final drive is sound, so - - - - what's another grand at this point! Right???

[omg1010]

Clutch spline lube?

Read this:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/bmw-r110 ... -hour.html

and this

http://www.bmwmoa.org/forum/showthread. ... 977&page=9

I doubt that it is the splines. Could be a problem with the gearbox ... But the splines can be inspected when the starter is off.

Brgds
Oliver

[sweatmark]

Clutch spline failures have not always been associated with shifting problems, based on the anecdotes here, on ADV, BMWSportTouring, etc.

Some folks open up their R1150** oilheads after 75k+ miles to find good splines that are rusty and devoid of any lubricant... but the drivetrain still works great, including shifting mechanics. I'm unconvinced that spline lubrication has anything to do with the early life cycle clutch spline failures in our bikes; instead/anstatt, it's all about the mismatch of spline length & positioning, cantilevered engagement, wobbly clutch housing runout, and BMW's corporate decision to pretend that such design & quality errors never happened.

The oilhead transmissions are clunky in both R1100** and R1150** bike variants. Maintenance of the shifting mechanism ball joints is important, as is shifting technique ("preloading") and rider expectations: these are not smooth-shifting machines when compared to motorcycles with wet clutch, lower clutch/flywheel inertia.

<edit> Found references linking shifting performance with clutch spline wear, and changed my ranting.

[MALIBU02]

Many thanks for the links Oliver.
I've heard of guys doing this but couldn't get any info on it. Should have a chance in a few days to pull the starter and take a closer look. I sell tubing for a living and have access to other parts. Will probably give it a shot.

sweatmark, I mostly agree with your point. However, when I saw the RT opened up in Seattle the service managers comment seemed valid. He said the lack of lube at the end of the tranny shaft where the clutch slides will wear the splines thin if there is no lube. Then eventually they fail. That was the prognosis on that bike.
I thought that if the clutch lever pulled smoothly the clutch should be releasing and not affect a shift. Which leaves me with your final comment - -
They are just plain clunky!
Thanks for the info and comments
I'll let you know what happens.

[omg1010]

Well I would mostly agree with Mark (sweatmark). The oilhead gearboxes are clunky independent of the state of the clutch. That is why a special shifting technique is recommended for any of the oilheads: slightly pre-load the shifter, engage the clutch and then shift ... With this technique shifting on my old oilhead (R1100R) is like cutting butter with a knife - most of the time

Brgds
Oliver

[grwrockster]

Just in case.......

I was invloved in a discussion about something that sounds imilar, and is worth a shot before going mad with the spanners / wallet......

The thread was in the Rockster section, and was entitled 'gear change issues'

I checked the Properties and copied the URL, so hopefully this'll take you straight there:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=24137

While I'm at it..... Happy New Year to all!

[MALIBU02]

Thanks grw!

Yep it took me there. That's very interesting including the 4/3 and 3/2 downshift specific.

However it sounds like a different issue in that the lever moves down without taking the mechanism with it.
Mine won't move down at all unless I really get on it. I have no downward motion at all until it breaks free. Upcoming weekend looks like decent weather.
Hope to get out for a ride. Plan to make a conscious effort to blip the throttle on downshift and see if that helps.
Most of the time it is pretty smooth up and down. Then about the time you get in the "zone" thru some twisties it sticks and brings you back with a clenched jaw.

Last ride was a V-strom. Just flick it and never think twice. Nice bike but no character or personality. So it was back to the Euro rides.

If I knew for sure the teardown and lube etc would do it, I'd just get on with it. If I spend the money and it still happens - -I'll be p-----!

Thanks for the suggestion

[AndyRR]

So many '02s with so few miles.... This is why BMW decided to sweep the splines under the rug. These things have been out of warranty for 8 years and still aren't into the failure range.
I don't mean to suggest that you have a spline issue. Personally, I didn't notice any shifting issues prior to spline failure.

It's not that hard to pull the transmission and its a great way to get to know your machine. The first time will take 6-8 hours round trip assuming you don't find anything else wrong (pivot bearings, etc...). The next time, it will take less than 3 - especially if you pull the whole transmission to wheel off as an assembly. There's enough folks here that have done it, so there's plenty of free tech support available.

[MALIBU02]

Thanks for the comments Andy.

Points worth considering.

[grwrockster]

MALIBU02,

However it sounds like a different issue in that the lever moves down without taking the mechanism with it.
Mine won't move down at all unless I really get on it. I have no downward motion at all until it breaks free.

Just in case.... to explain what I found (and others seem to have experienced as well) is that if the gearchange external mechanism (in my case definitely the nylon pivot bush described) is sticking, then although it looked like the mechanism had 'returned' to the central position properly after a downshift, in fact it hadn't. The result was this.....

If my previous gearchange was an upshift, then the lever would 'return' properly - that is, it would then permit you to make another shift (up or down) with no problem. However, if you made a downshift, and then wanted to make another consecutive downshift, then you get nothing. Then, if you upshifted it'd work, and would then allow you to downshift, but probably only for one downshift before the issue re-appeared (i.e. unable to make another downshift).

This is why I'd repeat a suggestion I made in the topic I referred you to before taking the thing to bits, which is..... if you get a failed downshift INSTEAD of tramping harder on the lever, instead hook your toe under the lever and do what you might call a 'partial upshift'........

(Note that, if your gearlever is sticking ALL the way DOWN after a downshift, then leaping on it won't help - it has to return to the central position to enable the selector forks in the gearbox to return to the central position also, so that another gear can be shifted).

I'd try lifting the lever just enough so you raise the lever, but not enough to actually upshift a gear (that ought to assist the gearchange mechanism back to where the return springs normally get it to without physical intervention).

I found that this 'assistance' was enough for the gear selector to 'return' to the correct position. After the gentle 'partial upshift', try once more to downshift. If it works, then I'd make a beeline for the external gearchange mechanism (I'd head back to that gearlever pivot pronto and/or the linkage pivots as Riceburner stated in the other thread!).

Although I have nothing like the depth of experience with these bikes as a lot of guys on here do, I find it hard to correlate potential spline failure with a gear-shifting issue of this nature. In any case, I'm a big believer in starting with the simple stuff first (it's easy to overlook the basics sometimes as you can get blinded by the expected 'bigger' or 'common problem' issue I think). I'd start with the easy to get at and simple/cheap to resolve stuff first, and then work your way inwards/toward the more complex stuff progressively.

I may be barking up the wrong tree - but wouldn't it be lovely if it did just turn out to be a 10 minute stripdown clean and lube of the gearlever? It's got to be worth a shot eh?

Good luck!

[BoxerSteve]

All I know is, sticky downshifting was an issue on my '02 R1150R too. I had the same symptoms as described in this thread and it drove me NUTS.

And it's one of the reasons I sold the bike and got an R1200R. The other reasons? Surging (I couldn't get rid of the surging no matter what I did) and the horror stories about clutch splines and final drives on this site. I'm sure the R1200R isn't perfect either but so far it has been an amazing machine - and it has no surging and no shifting issues.

[MALIBU02]

Steve,

I was talking to service mgr at BMW shop on Sat AM. I asked him what they changed on the R1200R clutch to get away from the spline problem.
He said it was still a splined shaft but with higher alloy steel. I'm sure there other improvements in the design too.

The tranny improvements are noted in most reviews. Grongrats and happy shifting.
(I got lucky on the surging. first sync cured the mild one I started with.)

[Keppelj]

I had the same very stubborn down shifting from third to second with a low mileage '02 I bought a year and a half ago. I no longer have the problem, or very rarely, and I'm not sure why. I learned to tune my throttle blips better and timing on downshifts and added 10% Guard Dog moly to the transmission oil. Which made the change? I notice Paul Glaves (MOA ON wrench columnist) recommends Guard Dog on the oil head forum there. In any case the problem is gone.