New to the forum, have some mechanical questions

[R12Roadster Warrior]

I'm hoping to get some insight on an issue that my dealer just raised with me and I wanted to find out what other's experience is with it.

2009 R1200R with 42,000 miles in the past 2 and 1/2 years. Bought it new in 2010.

Took it in for the 42k service and got a call from the dealer saying that they were concerned about some noise coming from the bell housing. So I went in to speak to the mechanic and listen and observe.

When starting the bike in neutral there is a loud clacking noise that goes away when the clutch is dis-engaged. I've noticed this noise to varying degrees for almost as long as I've owned the bike but the mechanic said its the first he's heard it.

Also, maybe unrelated, maybe not; when the bike is turned off, in gear on the center stand the rear tire seems to have a lot of play moving back and forth and results in some metal striking metal sound up in the bell housing.

Just wondering, if anyone else has experienced these symptoms.

I find it little irritating because I raised the concern over the clacking noise over a year ago before I exceeded my warranty mileage.

Anyways, thanks in advanced for any thoughts or suggestions.

Cheers! (Typos and other errors corrected for clarification)

[ammolab]

If you complaint was on your earlier service record you still have a warranty complaint.

[R12Roadster Warrior]

Doubt it is because they blew me off by saying the boxers were known for knocking. Still, they might do a good-will repair if we are pretty certain that something is wrong and if we can identify the problem specifically. Dealer said that since there hasn't yet been a failure, BMW won't likely go fishing for the problem, but at the same time the mechanic wouldn't do a post service test ride because he said his insurance wouldn't cover him if the mystery part failed while he was test riding it.

[GBag]

Interesting info. I have noticed, for lack of a better term, more "chatter" when in neutral and the clutch is out. The amount of chatter always varies. I expect it to get a bit louder as you are turning more parts but some times it gets really loud. Squeezing the clutch for a few seconds and letting it back out usually settles it down. Both my 09 and my 11 have done this but I haven't given it a lot of thought since they both have done the same thing.

[R12Roadster Warrior]

Thanks for the feedback Gbag. That is exactly as I've experienced it. However the mechanic said the bike was also vibrating unusually with the chatter. So maybe that is the third symptom. Anyways, still looking for more suggestions or hypothesi about these symptoms.

[deilenberger]

When you say "clutch engaged" - can I assume you're talking about the clutch lever being pulled in? (That's actually clutch disengaged - it isn't transferring power between the engine and tranny.)

Run away from that dealer. Gear clatter at idle is pretty much a given on the boxer motor. What you're hearing is the transmission gears clattering against each other in response to the slightly rough idle that the R1200 engine has. Normal, and I'd bet at least 50% (or more) R12R's do it to some extent. You can lessen it by using 75W-140 gear oil in the transmission. If you really want to get scared, try putting the bike in gear, engine running with it on the centerstand with the rear wheel off the ground. You then add lots of rotating mass to the equation (in the wheel), that makes the noise even worse.

Run away, run away and find a decent independent.

[R12Roadster Warrior]

Wow, thanks Don. Anybody else share his opinion?

[Bob Ain't Stoppin']

I can agree about the massive clatter when the bike is on the center stand. Also the large amount of evident lash in that case. But with both wheels on the ground, I never heard noise when in gear with the clutch pulled (disengaged). There is nothing moving in that event in the transmission or drive shaft, rear end. So there should be no noise.

I agree that you should get another opinion on this "problem"

[deilenberger]

I can agree about the massive clatter when the bike is on the center stand. Also the large amount of evident lash in that case. But with both wheels on the ground, I never heard noise when in gear with the clutch pulled (disengaged). There is nothing moving in that event in the transmission or drive shaft, rear end. So there should be no noise.

That doesn't sound like what is described though.. it sounds as if they are engaging (releasing the lever) the clutch with the transmission in neutral, and listening to gear clatter.. did I miss something in his description?

And you're correct - wheels on the ground, in gear, clutch pulled in (disengaged) - there should be no clatter or noise.

I agree that you should get another opinion on this "problem"

I think we do need the OP to clarify what he means by "the clutch is dis-engaged" (was this edited? If so - please note it, we're old here and easily confused..)

[R12Roadster Warrior]

My appologies for the confusion. When I pull in and disengage the clutch, the sound goes away. The clatter/clacking is heard only when in neutral and the clutch engaged. When I am riding, I don't notice the clatter, only when stopped and in neutral with clutch engaged.

[Bob Ain't Stoppin']

I think we would need to hear this to be more accurate with comments. Could this be cam drive chain problem? If coming from the tranny, it's not normal

[David R]

Clutch out in neutral you hear the noise.

Clutch in OR bike in gear no noise.

Am I correct?

[deilenberger]

My appologies for the confusion. When I pull in and disengage the clutch, the sound goes away. The clatter/clacking is heard only when in neutral and the clutch engaged. When I am riding, I don't notice the clatter, only when stopped and in neutral with clutch engaged.

Absolutely NORMAL. Run away from that dealer.. (like the dealer who wanted to split my engine/trans to address an oil drop.. which I fixed by mopping the oil that had accumulated in the airbox from my overfilling. Their estimate - $2,000. My cost to fix - $0.00.)

You can probably reduce the clatter a bit with a really anal tuneup, and if it's really excessive, I'd be suspicious of one of your stick coils being marginal. Mine would intermittently go into a really crappy idle mode.. replaced the two main coils (I had spares kicking around) and the really crappy idle is gone. Plugs can do that also. You want the valves adjusted dead nutz on, the throttle bodies calibrated to zero (GS-911 does that nicely), new plugs and you likely won't notice it near as much.

Oh - also - switch the transmission to 75W-140 synthetic - the dealer carries it.

[R12Roadster Warrior]

For those who would like to actually hear the noise it's making...

http://youtu.be/-BheGvmMZiU

Thanks again for your input.

[deilenberger]

Without being there.. tough call. If it is as distinct and as repetitious as it sounds - it isn't gear clatter. But again, without hearing it first hand... It is transmission related since it only happens when the clutch is engaged.

Mebbe tomorrow I'll try recording mine..

Oh, also - the bike was cold when you recorded it? Sounds as if the idle speed is a bit higher then I'm used to (when warm idle should be between 800-1000 RPM or so..)

[deilenberger]

Did a video this AM. It was done outdoors, so the noise isn't as distinct as it would be listening to it indoors, and I'm not certain how well my phone picked it up since the microphone pretty much points away from the camera.

"Engaged" - means the clutch lever is RELEASED and the clutch is engaged so the transmission is spinning in neutral.
"Disengaged" - the means is pulled in so nothing in the transmission should be spinning.

Link: http://youtu.be/IkDjCtFXcL0

[Steve in VT]

Count me as a vote for a different mechanic. Anybody who says he isn't covered by insurance for test rides is not someone you want to trust with your bike or your wallet.

My '84 R65LS rattled a bit in neutral. I initially thought it was crank end-float, because it disappeared when I pulled in the clutch lever. With 60K on the clock, the drive train was pretty loose, but I learned to ignore it. Once I got rolling, it was unnoticeable.

Steve

[R12Roadster Warrior]

Did a video this AM. It was done outdoors, so the noise isn't as distinct as it would be listening to it indoors, and I'm not certain how well my phone picked it up since the microphone pretty much points away from the camera.

"Engaged" - means the clutch lever is RELEASED and the clutch is engaged so the transmission is spinning in neutral.
"Disengaged" - the means is pulled in so nothing in the transmission should be spinning.

Link: http://youtu.be/IkDjCtFXcL0

Don, thanks for the video. It's clear that both bikes are making the same noise, I guess what is less clear is the amount of clatter and or associated vibrations. But I am grateful for everbodies insight. Maybe I'll be taking a little ride to Tucson for my next service. I've heard Iron Horse BMW is top notch.

[alevin2352]

Don E: you posted on 10/4:

You can probably reduce the clatter a bit with a really anal tuneup, and if it's really excessive, I'd be suspicious of one of your stick coils being marginal. Mine would intermittently go into a really crappy idle mode.. replaced the two main coils (I had spares kicking around) and the really crappy idle is gone. Plugs can do that also. You want the valves adjusted dead nutz on, the throttle bodies calibrated to zero (GS-911 does that nicely), new plugs and you likely won't notice it near as much.

how do you calibrate the throttle bodies with gs-911? did you mean twinmax?

thanks
alan levin

[deilenberger]

Don E: you posted on 10/4:

You can probably reduce the clatter a bit with a really anal tuneup, and if it's really excessive, I'd be suspicious of one of your stick coils being marginal. Mine would intermittently go into a really crappy idle mode.. replaced the two main coils (I had spares kicking around) and the really crappy idle is gone. Plugs can do that also. You want the valves adjusted dead nutz on, the throttle bodies calibrated to zero (GS-911 does that nicely), new plugs and you likely won't notice it near as much.

how do you calibrate the throttle bodies with gs-911? did you mean twinmax?

thanks
alan levin

Alan, you use both. You use the GS-911 to lock the TB's in step, then the TwinMax to do the balance.

The stepper motors do vary from each other. It appears that above idle they go into lock-step where both are opened/closed the same amount. The GS-911 adds an additional function to that - it locks them together starting at idle.. then keeps them open the same amount without varying the opening.

Is the GS-911 really necessary? IMHO, I don't think so. I've done it both ways and found no difference in the adjustment at around 1600-1800 RPM (which is where the adjustment should be made.) With the TB's not locked to each other - the vacuum will vary at idle, but who cares? We don't tune for idle... and they appear to lock before we reach the RPM we're tuning at.

FWIW - I've tuned a number of inmates (R1200R forum members) bikes, and a number of local club members bikes. Once I have gotten the valve adjustment correct, the only times I've needed to actually make an adjustment was if a dealer was into it before me. At 62,000 miles+ my bike still appears to have perfect balance >1,600 RPM. I've never adjusted mine except to take some photos for a DIY I wrote for the BMW-MOA Hexhead DIY forum. BMW seems to have finally gotten the cable setup right with the hexhead engines.

That said - I have found a few bikes out of balance - shortly after they were tuned by a dealer. I most cases it was a same-day tuneup.. so the engine hadn't really completely cooled down before the adjustment was done (bad form IMHO.) On those bikes I was able to improve both idle quality and at speed smoothness (lack of buzz) by doing the valve adjustment correctly, then doing the balance. I suspect the valve adjustment wasn't perfect when the mechanic tuned it - so they were compensating for a crappy valve adjustment by doing a crappy balance.

I haven't done a camhead engine yet - which will be interesting since it will be almost impossible to get the valves as close as I like to see them (+/- 0.001") due to the step sizes of the semi-spheres used to adjust them.