Calling Expert Riders...

[Ed K]

Basic bike riding question...

[MIXR]

Too complex and not enough options.

Some will lean.
Some will push on one side of the bar.
Some will pull on one side of the bar.
Some will transfer weight to the inside peg.
Some will stick a knee out to shift body weight.
Some will push against the tank to apply a load to the bike.

Some will do more than one thing.

Some will do it all so naturally that they will have a hard time making a pick.

Some will change what they do depending on the road, track, or corner, or uphill, or downhill.

Too hard.

[BobFV1]

General answer is lean right, push right grip, turn right - it generally works, but speed, lean angle, and ther considerations can create variables that cause you to do something different.

I think this topic is pretty well addressed in the BRC literature and most of the State motocycle rider handbooks.

[jonothan]

I'm not an expert rider, having held a full bike licence for hey, all of five weeks now!

But I do know the answer.

It's called "Counter Steering" (here in the UK at any rate), and you apply gentle forward pressure - not turn the handlebars as such - on the side that you're turning into. You shift your weight or apply pressure as MIXR suggests. It comes naturally after practice.

So I'm told but I've tried it and it works.

J

[collyers]

B - it's physically impossible to NOT have the front wheel move left THEN fall into the right turn. Try it. Wear your gear when you do it. Try it on a bicycle, same thing. To begin a turn, the wheel must turn AWAY from the direction you want it to go, so the profile of the tire "falls" onto the sidewall and turns the bike. It is a very minute amount, but it is physics, not skill or riding style. It is an unconcious thing - don't think about it or try to beat it - just ride. Next big sweeper turn you want to fly through - don't do anything except push away on the bar that will be on the inside of the turn, subtle, gentle moves. See? If you're crashing, you're doing it wrong. That's how you know you've done it wrong. Sky-ground-sky-ground...that's also when you've done it wrong.

[darthrider]

Countersteering (push right - turn right) became popular in the early 80's when the motomags started writing about it...some as if they "invented" it.
That's about the time riding schools were starting up and they adopted CS as a cornerstone of their curicula.

It became part of motorcycling "pop culture" and the subject of many heated discussions as some hailed it as THE ONLY way to turn a motorcycle while others struggled with the counter-intuitive concept of seemingly "steering left to turn right". Early efforts to explain it generally were "turn the bars to the left, the bike will go right." Along the way someone discovered a clearer way to instruct the technique, if not fully explain or undertsand it..."Push right to go right". I think this is really why countersteering became the 11th Commandment...you don't *have* to understand it, you only have to do it. CS became almost universally accepted as "the" way to turn a bike. We seem to love "quick fix" solutions.

Truth is, there really *is* only one way to turn a motorcycle (assuming speeds above ~15 or so MPH, assuming street bikes)...you have to make it lean in the direction you want to turn. That is how they turn (simplified - no physics version) and there are a number of ways to initiate and control that leaning action, as explained above. (There are some other ways to lean and or turn them but they are specialized situations, generally racing, and are out side this discussion.)

Reg Pridmore won the first couple of AMA Superbike races on airhead Beemers. Later he founded an excellent riding school called CLASS. It teaches street control & safety techniques on road race courses, taught by road racers, using racing techniques. The theory is the techniques that make the racers fast on the track are generally the same things that make us safe on the street. It works. If you possibly can, take CLASS. You will be glad you did!

Reg does not teach countersteering (CS) as the primary way to lean the motorcycle, thus inducing a turn. He teaches "lower body steering". To most that seems more intuitive than CS at first blush, but it is much harder to learn and master and proportionately more effective.

Basically you are very relaxed on the bars and don't make any significant steering input at all with them. Pressure is exerted on the bike primarily by the thighs & knees...With your left thigh & knee, push firmly on the tank to the right and the bike will lean and turn right. There are ways to "fine tune" it by shifting to the right on the seat about 1/2 the width of one butt-cheek, slightly bending the right elbow and slightly leaning forward and right, into the turn. Foot pressure on the left footpeg will help. (This is NOT "hanging off" which is a road race technique used mainly to avoid "using up" cornering clearance, that's another discussion.)

Lower body (LB) steering is smoother and easier and more precise than CS but it can be a little "slow". CS can then be used to speed the "quickness" of the turn and to make small, quick corrections...like zigging around a tar snake, then zagging back into your cornering line.
Used together the two techniques are very precise and accurate, and really low-effort.

They also contribute greatly to the "Holy Grail of Motorcycle Riding"...smoothness in all things.

None of this is to make you faster, quicker or more agressive in your riding, although that can absolutely be one use of these techniques! It will make you more in control and therefore safer at any speed, in any circumstance. And it is very rewarding and fun to control your motorcycle at that level.

Never let anyone tell you there is only one, or "THE" way to lean & turn a motorcycle. Think about it, discuss it with your buddies, read the books...but mainly take the schools. I recommend CLASS.

Fast, smooth and safe...

EDIT: This is not at all inconsistent with Collyer's explanation of the front tire having to first point left a bit to induce a right-lean/right-turn. That's something good to understand but un-necessary to think about in learning and practicing...don't make it too complex.

[yjleesvrr]

It IS possible to steer your bike without using countersteering. I do it all the time on my Harley with the throttle locked in place. I'll go down a highway, take my hands off the bars, lean back and relax, and steer the bike by using body steering.

As Darth already said, it is not as fast as countersteering.

[scottybooj]

the key is the speed in the question...40 +mph. You are most definitely going to push on the right handlebar thereby 'turning left' prior to entering the turn.

choice A.

[darthrider]

the key is the speed in the question...40 +mph. You are most definitely going to push on the right handlebar thereby 'turning left' prior to entering the turn

Scotty, I must repectfully disagree.
It's sort of a "parlor trick" but to prove the point you *can* induce the lean/turn at 40MPH and below with lower body steering, "hands-off" the bars. Like I said, it's just a stunt and I don't recommend it, but it illustrates that practiced lower body steering does work.
It's always a little quicker with a touch of counter steering, especially at lower speeds. And truth be told, even LBS devotees instinctively will use a touch of CS as well.
I only make a point of this, not to argue, but to try and impress the validity of this technique. I'd never argue against countersteering, I use it all the time...along with lower body steering. Both independently and in concert with each other...depends.

Maybe later on we could discuss steering with the "thottle" like flat track & Super Motard racers, and *some* roadracers. No street application here for sane people.
And steering by just physically pushing the bike down into the corner while keeping the body vertical, like a dirt bike on a "rail" or berm...and Super Motard of course! This can be used on the street and has the single advantage of being FUN!

There has been some recent criticism about the "race talk" on here. I'm sure that can be boring for non-racers and non-race fans and if any of us have made it sound "elitist" or "clubby" I apologize. I never intend it that way...it's just a lot of fun for me and very engaging.
But the value of much of it for all riders is that most racing control techniques have direct aplication to street riding and *can* be huge safety advantages. Most of these techniques are entirely independent of speed, they just work.

[geechie]

I think that most of us, once we've gained enough experience that riding and steering the bike becomes second nature, use a combination of CS and LBS. Reg Pridmore is a legend and wouldn't be so ON about LBS if there weren't something to it. Don't know about the rest of you, but I'm always working on my technique, and I've still got a lot to learn. Maybe when I get the next bike — an R1200?, — I'll sign up for a CLASS school.

Maybe we all should.

George

[darthrider]

Don't know about the rest of you, but I'm always working on my technique, and I've still got a lot to learn. Maybe when I get the next bike — an R1200?, — I'll sign up for a CLASS school.

I'm going to take Reg's CLASS school again, first chance I get. If anyone is apprehensive about it being a "race school in disguise", here's what they do: If they catch you "timing laps", you're oughta there! Passing is only allowed on the straights and the *outside* of turns. That eliminates the crazy, dangerous stuff. If they catch you passing on the inside (and they will) you get one warning. Do it again and you're oughta there! They are serious about it being a street safety school. The name stands for California's Latest Street Safety School.
There are two groups, according to experience..."B" for less experienced and "A" for more experienced. You pick your group and move up or down as you see fit. They *will* move you if you are in the wrong group, either way!
I also highly recommend the MSF Experienced Rider Course every 2-4 years as a refresher. It's also a great way to "learn" a new bike. Take it with some buds. Get a 10% insurance discount.

[collyers]

first of all - WHAT DAVE SAID!!!

second of all - you're not trying hard enough if you don't fall every time you ride.

third of all - why try that hard?

Fourth of all - try not to think so much. enjoy the ride, discover new tehniques & use them or not. when it stops being fun, sell it & move on.

fifith of all - on a H-D doing "look-ma, no-hands"?? The line between bravery & foolishness just became very distinct.

if I could just get the sheep outta the way - DJ?



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[Kevin Markwell]

“That's something good to understand but un-necessary to think about in learning and practicing...don't make it too complex.” - Darthrider

“- try not to think so much. enjoy the ride” - Collyers

In many respects I couldn’t agree more. But some of us are mental masochists and can’t help ourselves. Like Dave, I like all things motorcycle: the riding, the thinking about, the reading about, and sharing it all. Since I started riding, learning and reading about bikes four years ago I have been especially interested the whys and wherefores of steering. I have particularly enjoyed the Reg Pridmore - Keith Code academic squabble over the countersteer – bodysteer controversy. The bottom line, as usual, is about what Dave said. It is a combination and ultimately not too important. BUT it is fun to delve into the nuances of what many claim to be unknowable.

To show the bizarre dichotomy that is my mind, I have now enjoyed wasting perfectly good riding time on a Saturday morning reading and selecting some of these links. (I have to remind myself NOT to check in here BEFORE I go on my rides.) I have put some of them here just in case there are any other frustrated physicists or engineers out there. Just scan the first one from Bezerkly. I put it in there just to show how in depth, sophisticated and arcane the discussion and math can become. The next one is a little more my current speed. The demos are too brief, but nice if you don’t have a feel for the conservation of angular momentum and how powerful a force it can be. I have some text diagrams that explain it much better than any of these and I may scan and post later if there is any interest - but BENDER is calling my name and my academic curiosity and devotion have their limits.

Will any of this help us be better riders? Maybe not the math or vectors, but trying all the different techniques and thinking about them as you do can only help you to arrive at what works best for you in all situations. If nothing else, it adds to the perpetual mind game that is riding. It keeps you alert and in tune with everything that’s going on. Anything that adds to that and helps push out thoughts of bills to be paid, office work piling up or deadlines to be met is definitely a good thing. Time to ride.

http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~fajans/pu ... ikeAJP.PDF

http://science.howstuffworks.com/gyroscope1.htm

http://ihome.ust.hk/%7Ewestland/new_page_3.htm

http://www.wfu.edu/Academic-departments ... Q3010.html

http://www1.ph.unimelb.edu.au/staffreso ... m/mi3v.htm

http://www.clevislauzon.qc.ca/professeu ... other2.htm

[jamming]

I'm with Darth, I had the privledge of taking Reg Pridmore's CLASS a number of years ago, WOW. I practice what I learned to this day, every day.
I do take a MSF experinced rider course every 3 years for the insurance discount AND to reinforce the good thinking we need to survive the idiots out there.
I started riding on the street in 1974, I was 14 on a 350 Honda. Back then there were no cell phones, MP3 players, Starbucks, and a myriad of other distractions and it STILL could be dangerous. Now look at all the distractions drivers have.
We are fortuanate now to have good instruction and good instructors to help us learn to properly control our motorcycles. Could I rell you how I turn a motorcycle, I guess.....its second nature to me, and we could all learn how to do it properly, but, the most important thing to learn is how to survive. I know I have developed a sixth sense, a spidy sense if you will , sometimes you just know that bonehead is coming over and you evade and they do. I had an instructor once and David Hough a motorcycle safety writer who does a lot for BMWON and rides a BMW, state" a good rider seldom has to take emergency evasive action because they have anticipated the action of others" , good advice.
I'm dead serious( pun intended) about being the best rider I can be, am I an expert? I'd have to say no, my mind set is, I am an experianced rider, with a lot more to learn. My fear is, if I start to think I'm an expert I will get lazy and quit learning. A recipe for disaster. I have a family now with 2 kids under 3, I started late and can't wait to introduce my kids to motorcycles. I have weighed the risks and they are acceptable.
Roger

[scottybooj]

darth, but the question didn't ask what 'could be done'...it implied what is commonly done. so wouldn't the counter steer answer be the correct one? i'm sure you could lower body steer, but that's not what one would do naturally.

[darthrider]

darth, but the question didn't ask what 'could be done'...it implied what is commonly done. so wouldn't the counter steer answer be the correct one? i'm sure you could lower body steer, but that's not what one would do naturally.

Scotty -
I was off camping this weekend and thought about my response to your comment about lower body steering coming into play at about 40MPH.

After re-thinking, I believe you are right...somewhere around 40 is where LBS becomes an "effective" way to induce the lean/turn. My comment was also correct that it *could* be done at lower speeds but that would really be a "parlor trick" to prove a point.

I use LBS and counter steering all the time...usually ~80-90% LBS with 10-20% CS to sharpen and or/quicken steering a bit. At lower speeds the ratios are more like 40% LBS and 60% CS or so, maybe even 20/80.

In a favorite curve section on a w-i-d-e 2-lane with perfect road surface & unlimited visibility, just to experiment with the effectiveness of LBS, I've gone through a long, very fast s-curve section using LBS *only*. At a steady 110MPH indicated, I had the throttle lock set and fingers *very* lightly on the grips...just touching barely them, "just in case". I wanted to make sure I wasn't subconsciously applying a touch of CS. I wasn't.

So I started changing lines and moving the bike around in my wide lane. The steering inputs and reactions were pretty quick, very precise, totally contollable and my arms/wrists/hands were totally relaxed...just "along for the ride" really. If I had had to take quick evasive action to miss an errant Road Runner for instance, I would have instantly fed in some quick CS input to miss the little guy.

One of the advantages of LBS, as Reg teaches it, is that your arms don't "pump up". All they really do, much of the time, is just work the hand controls, they have little to do with steering. When our arms are working hard in CS a bike quickly, they get stiff from tension, adrenaline and excitement. This creates steering inputs that are jerky, ragged and imprecise. We end up overcontolling the bike. Quick, evasive maneuvers become slow and difficult. Smoothness is the first to go, accurate steering is the next. We get even more tense and proper steering gets more difficult. We become dangerous at any speed.

Contrast this with LBS where your large muscles, body weight and leverage are doing all the work, just helped a bit now & again with CS. Smooth, quick, relaxed, precise...and safe.

[Ed K]

Great discussion...appreciate everyone sharing the insights and experience...

Would you guys also agree that using 80-90% LBS with 10-20% CS at higher speeds, should also yield higher cornering speeds than, for example, using 80-90% CS with 10-20% LBS?

This due in part to front to rear weight being more evenly distributed through the bike, thus allow a more stable platform for deeper leans...and also better absorbing road irregularities. (That is, 80-90% CS is more inclined to shift weight forward, than 80-90% LBS.)

[darthrider]

Good question Ed...wish I had a good answer.
I'm surprised someone hasn't given you a "theory" dressed in "answer's" clothing by now though!

I really can't prove it by comparative lap times or anything but I'm as sure as I can otherwise be that I can corner at higher speeds using mainly LBS with an occassional touch of CS than I can using mainly CS, but I doubt it has anything to do with balance or anything really measurable. I'm convinced - in my case - that it's due to a combination of increased smoothness and a little increased confidence inspired by that smoothness.

Watch the winner of most motorcycle races...very often they *appear* slower than other riders. What they really are is *smoother* than the others and "fast always follows smooth" (unless you dial it down of course!)

And again, I am not advocating speed per se, or techniques that lead to speed, at least not for that reason.

Speed is always a choice but so is safety. Racing techniques will keep you alive. You decide whether to go slow or fast.

Personally, I find fast is a lot more fun...and expensive.

[Ed K]

Thanks Darth...

The mysteries of riding...some questions might never be conclusively answered...

But it is clear, that smoothness is key.