Handgun Recommendation

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JCsman
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Post by JCsman »

wncbmw wrote:Why just this weekend on SciFi channel while battling the Snakehead creatures make oversized by human growth hormone, a pretty young thing was blasting them away with a double barrelled shotgun!
I saw about ten minutes of the same AWFUL flick. Seems she ran out of "bullets" part way through the slaughter.

My favorite movie "gun lore" is when someone has a 12 guage pump trained on the bad guys. The a few minutes later has to emphasize his control so he racks the pump. I'd love to see the actor try it in real life. When the unfired shell ejected he'd likely swing at the flying object and pull the trigger in reflex.

Shows what most screen writers know about guns.
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Post by yjleesvrr »

The functioning of guns and motorcycles is misunderstood by the uninitiated. A friend once thought that a shotgun (due to their anti-personnel effectiveness) might be handy against a grizzly bear. I emphatically shook my head. "Not even with slugs. You want something like a .416 Rem. Mag. or a .458 Win. Mag. The only weaker gun I'd possibly suggest is a .375 Holland & Holland, but only if you had no choice!"
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Post by Pat »

You mean my S&W "Mountain Gun", revolver in .44 mag', w/Magna Ported 3" barrell won't make a California Black Bear drop to it's knees?

(other than to reach down and eat me....?)
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Post by socalrob »

YJ - My wife Tracie worked as a Federal surveyor in Alaska for several seasons. She was given shotgun training for the grizzly (and just as bad or worse, brown bears). Only one shotgun was given to each survey crew, a team of 3 people. Each person was supposed to be proficient with the gun, but being Tracie was a SoCal girl (should I say woman?), there was normally a hunter on the crew, they normally took the gun.

Although my wife never shot any bear, she did get charged once when the helicopter she was being dropped off by landed between a mother & cub brown bear. The copter had dropped its revs when the mother charged on Tracie's side (plexiglass didn't give her much security, they had found the animal eaten remains of a crashed crew the year before), the mother made it half way under the rotors before the pilot got it up in the air. Pretty exciting day on the job.

One year she was up there they had a bear attack on a crew (Tracie not being on it). The crew (2 guys (one an experienced hunter, with the gun) & a girl) was walking back on a line they had cut, and being late in the day, they were tired & spaced out. The guy with the shotgun was at the back of the three, they were spread out maybe 1000 ft. The girl in front came up over a rise & surprised a cub. The second guy came up to her right when the mother bear attacked. The bear mauled him & tossed him aside (where he played dead), & then mauled the girl, picking her up by biting her scull. The 3rd guy in the crew came up, saw the mess, & thinking the girl was already dead, shot at the bear from maybe 100 feet. The bear dropped the girl, charged the shooter, he was able to pump off a few (I don't recall how many) rounds. The bear stopped her charge and landed dead at the shooter's feet. Both the girl & the mauled guy lived, he lost a huge amount of muscle mass out of his arm & shoulder, she went through many surgeries for her face & I believe lost an eye.
I met her a couple of years ago & she looks good, but doesn't talk about it. She now works as a federal surveyor out of Arizona, far from bear country.

So I guess a shotgun CAN bring down a bear.

BTW, my brother living in Junea often carries a 45 while mountain biking, while he says its not an ideal weapon against a bear, it might work.
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11,00 shot dead a year - wonder why?

Post by Guest »

I thought this was a BMW motorcycle site.
This sick gun fetishism should be discussed on another site dedicated to you gun toting perverts. Please feel free to carry on murdering each other to your hearts content - just try to not impose your barbaric society (or lack of it) on the rest of us.
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Re: 11,00 shot dead a year - wonder why?

Post by BobFV1 »

Anonymous wrote:I thought this was a BMW motorcycle site.
This sick gun fetishism should be discussed on another site dedicated to you gun toting perverts. Please feel free to carry on murdering each other to your hearts content - just try to not impose your barbaric society (or lack of it) on the rest of us.
You're out of line. If there's a thread about which Teletubby is GAY, and people post on it in off-topic, then that's what people want to post about - if you don't like it, turn the channel! Also, why don't you grow a set and sign in.

By the way - the PURPLE Teletubby is gay.
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Post by wncbmw »

I thought this was a BMW motorcycle site.
This sick gun fetishism should be discussed on another site dedicated to you gun toting perverts. Please feel free to carry on murdering each other to your hearts content - just try to not impose your barbaric society (or lack of it) on the rest of us.
You should read what Freud says about the fear of weapons. "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity" :lol: My experience mirrors Robert Heinlein's - "An armed society is a polite society."

Re: bears. Anyone who carries a handgun for bear is brave or stupid. maybe both. Unless you plan to stick your gun hand down its throat to pull the trigger. I knew a guy who worked in Alaska some and they had a hunter with them with a big rifle. He was the best paid guy on the crew and no one complained. :wink:

And I watched more of the Snakehead movie than 10 minutes precisely because it was so bad! That made it funny to me! :lol: And I noticed the "bullet" reference also.
Last edited by wncbmw on Tue Sep 06, 2005 9:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by gelbe Kulter »

if you don't like it, turn the channel! Also, why don't you grow a set and sign in.
I second that. For "guest" to have seen how perverted the discussion got, and how quickly, he had to read the thread. This is easily avoided. :D

Apparently some buttons were pushed with this topic and before the reason for wanting the gun was explained it turned into a full-blown Omega Man fantasy fest - "I wish I could shoot a bunch of zombies. That would be sweet!" This is nothing new. I once read online that we must all prepare for "the three or four times in our lives when we need to use deadly force to defend ourselves." This was typed by an American computer nerd. He might just as well have said, "If only Mogadishu had a Starbucks, I'd be there man! I'd show those war lords who's boss, but I'm not going without a mochachino." :wink:

I think it just highlights how each of us lives not entirely in the real world, but also in his own head and not everything that gets written here can be taken seriously. Touring riders complain about how the lousy lappers shouldn't be allowed on the track. Computer gamers are anxious to committ "justifiable" homicide. Motorcyclists who get 15k miles from a sport touring tire are too macho for a scooter. Working stiffs pound their fists and rail against the common man. I try not to get worked up about any of it. :D

As for me, I like shooting and am attracted to shiny objects. My guns are unloaded, stored in a spare room, and taken out occasionally to be fired at paper targets or clay pigeons. I have never needed a gun, though I occasionally want one.
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Post by Shaman »

I heard on TV (so it must be true) that this is the first year car fatalities surpassed gun fatalities.

CONTROL MOTOR VEHICLES - MAKE OUR STREETS SAFE!
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Post by socalrob »

Wncbmw - Think about my brother's problem. Likelyhood of him actually running into a bear is fairly remote. When you live up there you are most likely not going to carry a big bear rifle everywhere. It would be pretty hard for him to carry while mountain biking (he does alot of single track) not to mention I would think a bit dangerous. I think he is most worried when he is out riding in the woods at night. So instead his really only option is a sidearm. Again, not perfect, but it might help (alot of bears will run if you fire off a warning round). Really, if the bear wants you bad enough it will stand a good chance of getting you no matter what. Depends on the mood of the bear. Also, depending on where you shoot the bear. They are good at protecting vital organ areas when they charge.

Same problem when he is camping in the wilderness as a part of his research. Alot of people doing their work get lax about hauling a big rifle around all day, in the rain, requiring alot of maintenance. You just hope you have it when you need it.
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Post by wncbmw »

Hey socalrob - I wasn't being insulting (that darn tongue-in-cheek stuff just doesn't translate via keyboard! :? ). I have been stupid (not brave) too by carrying a pistol in bear country or relying on someone elses pistol. It's better than a sharp stick or screaming like a girl! :P Everything's a compromise, sort of like motorcycles!

When I lived in Montana, we had much less concerns with bears in areas people would fire warning shots at them than in the parks, where no one could carry guns. The bears were fearless there! :shock:
if the bear wants you bad enough it will stand a good chance of getting you no matter what
How do you tell a black bear from a grizzly? Climb a tree, the black bear will climb up after you, the griz will knock the tree down.

How can you identify grizzly bear crap in the woods? It has bear bells and vibram soles in it!

I worked in an area that had the greatest concentration of grizzlies in the lower 48 and it was unnerving to find a huge pile of scat, so fresh it was still steaming! 8-[
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Post by Pat »

Soooooooo, what's wrong with
... screaming like a girl!
:?: :!: :?:
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Post by FGanger »

After living many years in the Alaskan bush, in Polar, Brown and Black Bear areas I have a couple of comments. By the way, this comes from one who has killed over 30 Brown Bears in self defense. Just so you know, the difference (at least in Alaska) between Brown and Grizzly bears: They are the same species, but Brown live close to water and catch a lot of fat fish, Grizzly live inland and eat whatever they can find. The diet of the Brown makes them really big, but a bit less aggressive. While the diet of the Grizzly makes them smaller, tougher and some say meaner.

We used to joke that the only defense one needs is a single shot pistol. Just as the bear is about to sink his fangs into you, take the pistol and shoot yourself in the head - problem ended. :lol:

There are places in Alaska where one needs to carry a firearm at all times. I mined for a number of years and we didn't go to the outhouse without picking up a rifle. Everyone has their favorites: Indians will be the most likely to carry a 30-30 carbine, Eskimo's are more likely to carry a .223 semi-auto. By the way, they get away with these weak rifles because they may very well be the best shots in the World. The janitor at a local school killed a Polar Bear with a .22 rifle. He used about 90 shots. He would come in close on his snow machine, fire the rifle and then move off to reload.

White men in the bush hardly ever carried anything smaller than a Winchester .300 mag. Guides usually carry .375 H and H mag - this is just in case they need to dispatch a wounded bear. The most popular caliber for non-natives to use is the .338 mag, my rifle of choice. My ex-wife carried a .458 Winchester mag - and yes she could fire it and do it well.

I've used a 12 gauge shotgun on a Brown Bear with success. I used rifled slugs with the last shot 00 Buck. My theory was that if I was not able to kill the bear, at least I could blind him so I could get away and reload. The shotgun was not and is not my first choice. The energy of a 12 gauge at close range is just about equal to any large bore rifle. The problem is the "close" part - very close.

Once, three of us were cooking dinner on a gravel bar. A Brown came running down the hill charging us. We later counted 35 shots had been put into the bear. The bear did not die at the scene. He howled all night long, walking around our camp in the dark. When first light came, we went after him to finish him off - we never found him. With all those shots, he still was able to get pretty far away.

I did use a pistol, .44 mag, to kill a Black Bear. It stepped through the large window in our cabin. Our bear rifle was kept next to the door (on the other side of the bear), my brother woke up and said, “Christ there’s a bear in here.” With that said, the bear focused on my brother. I pulled the pistol from under my pillow and killed the bear - one shot.

There is a difference between a bear hunting you and you hunting the bear. When the bear has its adrenaline pumping and is attacking, one needs a “big stick.” If you are hunting the bear, one shot is usually all it takes. The drill is to aim for a vital area, shoot, and then sit down and wait about an hour. Usually the bear will, if still alive, run/walk a short distance away. If he sees no one chasing him, he lies down and expires. So I’m told, for I’ve never gone bear hunting.

Almost everyone living in bush Alaska, with the exception of those who work for the Park Service, will also carry a side arm. Most old timers will tell you that they will use the pistol to try and frighten the bear away. One never wants to use a valuble rifle cartridge for this purpose.

Good god, I didn't realize how much I wrote. Now it's past my bedtime.

Good dreams,
Frank
Last edited by FGanger on Thu Sep 08, 2005 12:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by JCsman »

[quote="wncbmw] Freud says about the fear of weapons. "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity" [/quote]

Hmmmmm.... so why am I not afraid of my guns? :roll:
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Post by Pat »

I have a VERY healthy fear of weapons.......
if they're in the hands of somebody's other than my own!

(Whoa, what's that say about my sexual & emotional maturity?)

:shock:
Last edited by Pat on Wed Sep 07, 2005 12:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by JCsman »

Pat wrote:I have a VERY healthy fear of weapons.......
if they're in the hands of somebody's other than my own!
:lol: :lol: :lol:

I'm with you on that Mr. Pat. As Clint Eastwood said, "I believe in gun control. Where there's a gun, I want to be in control."
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Post by FGanger »

Good morning all. After a nights sleep and just before I go off to work with the teen versions of the guys Pat helps baby sit, I have a couple of comments.


Pat/JCsman,

I do agree with you guys. I’m not afraid of my weapons, but I do have a “healthy” respect of them. Now the same weapons in the hands of someone else; that’s a different story.

I find that even in a sports store or gun shop when a customer is looking at a piece I always keep one eye on him. This is especially true of the person who is sighting the long gun or the hand gun at imaginary targets in the store. I get real nervous when the person does this at anything lower than the ceiling. And if they point it to a spot where a human is, I stop and just have to say something to them or to the employee. The old adage about “not pointing your gun at anything you do not intend to shoot,” is one of my standard lectures.


socalrob,

Your posting regarding your wife does ring true to me. I’ve heard or experienced what you described many times in 30 years living in Alaska. I would be willing to bet that the bear which charged the chopper was a grizzly, they are famous for that.

For about 10 of my Alaska years I lived in Eskimo villages. The Eskimo have a saying: Man meet Black Bear - man eat. Man meet Brown Bear - man may eat. Man meet White Bear - bear eat. It was not meant as a joke, it was sage advice to be passed on.

It is my opinion, well founded I believe, that anyone who intends to make a living out of guessing what a bear will do in a particular situation, better have a second job.


For the hand gun posters,

Statistically, the semi-auto is more reliable than a revolver. However, I believe they are talking about using it on a range and just continuously firing away. But for concealed carry, where you are 99.99% carrying and .01% firing, the revolver makes sense. As Pat mentioned (in his knife to a gun fight post) about the time element - my teaching tells me that a “normal person” (not someone who trains to draw his concealed weapon - lots) can get a revolver sighted and ready to fire before a semi-auto. Now the newer (newer for me) semi-autos do a lot better; no manual safety, etc., like my .32 and my Glock .40. But for my wife, a lightweight .38 special S&W with a hammer shroud is the prescription. My ex carried an alloy Lady Smith with a 9 shot cylinder in .22 long rifle.

For the shotgun posters,

Actually for home defense, I think I could make an excellent argument for a .410 shotgun. As I recall, its muzzle energy is about equal to a .44 mag pistol. Yes, it rapidly sheds its energy - this is exactly what one wants if firing inside a house. Having a round go through the wall and into an occupied bedroom is not a good idea. And pump vs break open - the sound of the pump, in the dark of night, has a sobering effect on many people.

I just hope I never need to shoot anyone or anything again - I've had more than my share of both. Paper and clay targets are just fine for me, but not as good as shooting in a junk yard or a garbage dump, "Wow, did you see that transmission after I hit it?"

Frank
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Post by Pat »

My first choice of concealed carry, when I knew nothing 'bout guns......
was a 2 1/2" 'K' frame .357
it appeared under my shirt as a massive tumor, never again.

I tried carrying a Glock 19 (before the more compact "compacts" came out). When slow dancing with a gal at a party (in a VERY questionable neighborhood), she voiced her surprise of "a gun" I had on my hip, never again.

I then went to a 'J' frame .357 w/shrouded trigger, and had the groove down the barrel widened for an improved sight picture, much better.

My favorite and easiest to carry was a Seacamp .32, best. But we're talking little a .32 here..... While attending one of Madaad's courses (I almost out-shot his target by the way, got his autograph on a dollar bill) I found my Glaser safety slugs (or Winchester Silver tips) tumbling from the Seacamp! Point is, you gotta know what your choice of defense round does, where it hits in relationship to where ya aim, and what it feels like when you shoot it.

I no longer work in a Peace Officer capacity, can still instruct and qualify Law Enforcement personnel, but I no longer carry..... simply because I haven't applied for a permit. To carry concealed plays with your head, you actually find yourself tempting fate when otherwise you normally wouldn't. I actually stopped carrying a couple times during my ten years when I could...... just to get my head(ego) outa my ass.
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Post by yjleesvrr »

I've taken a course for concealed carry in Virginia, but have not gone down to the courthouse to get my permit because the fact that you have one shows up on a trooper's computer in his cruiser when he's checking out your license plate after pulling you over. I'm not sure what sort of mood that puts a cop in as he's thinking about giving you a ticket. So I'm still pondering the issue.

I own handguns (as well as shotguns and rifles) more for practicing at the range, and I've considered firearms ownership and some level of competence with them as being one of life's necessary skills, such as knowing how to swim, drive a stick-shift, drive large vehicles (I still have my CDL from the 11 years I drove a city bus), and knowing how to ride a motorcycle.

I'm not a survivalist by any stretch of the imagination, but there are times when the veneer of civlization can go by the wayside as we've seen in New Orleans last week. And before any Euros pass judgment thinking that this proves that they're superior because Western Europeans don't think this way, I only have to say that if I was a Jew living in 1940's Europe, I sure as hell would have wanted to have a gun to take out a number of SS troops coming to drag me to the concentration camp.
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Post by FGanger »

Yong,

Interesting question - the trooper pulling someone with a CCP over. I'm normally able to get out of a ticket (unless I'm REALLY BAD), the first time I was pulled over while carrying I handed the officer both my drivers license and my CCP at the same time. He asked if I was carrying now and if so where was the firearm. An officer has the right to ask for the weapon and can unload it if they think it necessary until their "business" with you is done. However, I've never had to even show or hand off the weapon. Perhaps this is because I'm upfront right away. Who knows?

Frank
Last edited by FGanger on Wed Sep 07, 2005 10:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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