Pricing, Performance, Etc....

[MikeCam]

Mods...what's the symbol for a troll? And for a fish who gets caught taking the bait.

[fnfalman]

I don't care how much something costs. If I want it and if I can afford it, I'll buy it. I'd overpay $10,000 on a BMW before I buy an equivalent or "better" Jap bike. It's as simple as that for me. If I were to worry about price/quality/performance quotient, my garage will be filled with rice burners right now instead of with a BMW and an Aprilia.

[Capt. Blackadder]

I think I'd draw the line at 20%. Like Dallara said, most bikes nowadays can go to six figures on the odometer if they are simply maintained regularly, so the perceived BMW longevity factor doesn't hold so much water for me anymore. However, there are other things about BMWs, like relative rarity, the coolness/gawk factor, their different ways of doing things, etc. I'm willing to pay a bit extra for that, but only up to a point. Sometimes there's a fine line between a "connoisseur" and a "sucker."

Three years ago when I selected my Roadster, there were certain things about it that were desirable and useful to me, but the relatively low price was what ultimately made me take the plunge. To me, this bike looked better and was more versatile than most anything rolling on two wheels, and I still feel that way, but if it had been way more expensive, then I would have selected something else. The price just crept over eleven grand, all in, and I had a bit of a hard time signing the loan documents. It is a motorcycle, after all, and I'm the only one in my household who rides it.

I share the common concern here about the upward surge in BMW's pricing structure. I really enjoy seeing all the new models they're bringing to the market, but there's just no way in h-e-double-hockey-sticks that I could justify around $20K for a new RT, for example. Not to my wife or myself. So call me pragmatic, call me frugal, call me a cheap fargin' bastidge... but if and when I buy another BMW, I will most likely buy used.

[Beemeridian]

68

[dallara]

First off...

Capt. Blackadder, I couldn't agree with you more on each and every point you made. I bought my R-1150-R for many of the same reasons you mention, and I perceived it as a bargain... But Beemer prices have taken a pretty scary jump up the scale since then.

I am also willing to pay a bit extra for exclusivity, etc. as you mentioned, but as you stated sooooooooooooooooooooo well...

Sometimes there's a fine line between a "connoisseur" and a "sucker."

Here, here... And Amen, Brudda'!


And Yellowjacket...

Your *shopping list* sounds like a clone of my own when I bought my R-1150-R! I, too, wanted an air-cooled twin, that was shaft-driven, and had comfortable ergos, etc.... And I had come down to the R-1150-R, a Ghezzi-Brian Furia, or a Guzzi... What swung the deal for the Beemer was the incredible diversity in accessories and, of all things, the *LOW* price!

Dealer support was a bit less of an issue since I do most of my own work on the bikes, but lately it has become more of an issue since I kind of like hanging out in bike shops again when I have the time... And the nearest decent Beemer dealer is nearly 200 miles away. That makes it a pain for parts (if I need 'em...) because I am left to do the Chicago BMW thing. That is sort of philosophically wrong for me, in a way, because I was a dealer and I believe in supporting a local dealer.

Besides, though I love my Roadster for strafing canyon apexes and blitzing around town, I have lusted after more wind protection and highway comfort for the long-distance treks... and I was getting tired of trying to outfit my R-1150-R like an RT with a small tank for this LD stuff... So I started shopping for an RT as an add-on...

Which brings us back to square one...

IMHO, $18 K is simply too high a price of admission for what you get in a R-1200-RT... Especially when you can get what to me is essentially a more than equivalent motorcycle (with more power and performance as a bonus... and *NO* friggin' servos! ) for 35% less, and end up with a longer warranty in the bargain!

(Please note here that the price I have in hand for a 2006 FJR-1300-A, with the additional 4 year factory warranty tacked on to the standard 1 year is *SUBSTANTIALLY* less than even Yamaha's MSRP... In fact, I can roll the thing out-the-door, including tax, title, license, *AND* the extended to 5 year warranty for $13 grand! That's a far, far cry from an $18 K R-1200-RT, which my preferred BMW will barely discount... In other words, $5,000.00 will buy an awful lot of tires, gas, oil, filters, etc., and it seems better spent that way than simply so I can say "I ride a BMW...")

BTW, shim-under-bucket valves are really not that much of pain to do... I asked my favorite Yamaha shop mechanic how long for FJR valves (and we both started out as mechanics about the same time back in the '70's) and he said "Aw, you could do 'em in about an hour, hour and half, including peeling the bodywork..."

Now, even it it takes two hours... Factor this into the equation...

Takes me about 30 minutes to do the valves on my R-1150-R, and I make sure they are done every 4,000 to 6,000 miles... FJR valve adjustment intervals are at the initial 600 mile check-up, and then not again until 26,600 miles, and then every 26,000 miles thereafter... If you did your Beemer Oilhead valves every 6,000 miles you would have done 'em 4.33 times in 26,000 miles - 4.33 x 30 minutes = 2.1 hours.

To me, it's a wash...

Just my two shillings

Cheers!

Dallara

[Pat]

I've said it before......
owning a Ducati, Moto Guzzi, Harley Davidson, BMW, and now a Triumph......

has made of me a motorcycle snob.

Few, if any
Japanese bikes......
has that elitist "snob appeal" some of us either admit having, or simply choose to keep secreted away.

My underpowered age-old "modern" Bonneville, is the first step toward recovery. I hope to someday become grounded again, and appreciate the merits of Japanese motorcycles..... but not from a distance as I have chosen for the past couple decades.

And as Dallara has suggested, BMW has already begun to push me away with it's expensive commercialism for a product, few of which, so much as even finished this year's Iron Butt.

[dallara]

Ya' know, Pat...

You said:

BMW has already begun to push me away with it's expensive commercialism for a product, few of which, so much as even finished this year's Iron Butt.

That's my whole issue with BMW... I love my Roadster, and at the time I got my R-1150-R I really thought BMW was starting to really make an effort at being not only competitive in the marketplace, but to do so in a unique way. Sadly (for me...) they have already seemed to move away from what I perceived as their/that philosophy. Now they seem more concerned with those damnable terms of the "new age"... Like "image"... And "lifestyle"... And the cost and consumer be damned.

I wanted to be buying Beemers from now on... And one member here, Bones, had me actually thinking of a non-ABS R-1200-GS as my next purchase... But again, the price pushed me away... But I tried to open my mind up again regarding the R-1200-RT, but when I actually took a good look at the price... *POOF*! That idea went out the window.

Certainly we all have a bit of "snob" in us, and we all want to be on a bike that is both unique and that we can be proud of... But when the price of admission to buy into the BMW "mystique" begins to reek of Harley-type "logo taxation" one has to consider Capt. Blackadder's stunningly astute observation:

Sometimes there's a fine line between a "connoisseur" and a "sucker."

And too, like you, few Japanese bikes draw me to them... I can list them on the fingers of one hand:

1.) Yamaha FJR-1300
2.) Kawasaki's new 650R Ninja parallel twin
3.) Suzuki's SV-650 V-twin
4.) Suzuki's 1300 Hayabusa
5.) Yamaha's 2006 R-1 Special Edition

And that's about it...

I like the Triumph Sprint ST and their new Daytona 675 Triple...

And I love a bunch of Italian bikes...

And Dreer's new Norton's...

But I really want a BMW R-1200-RT, R-1200-GS, and HP-2...

But the price is simply too high.

Looks like it will be a a Yamaha FJR-1300 in my garage next.

Cheers!

Dallara

[Biff's R]

Dallara,

Pull the trigger, and buy that FJR.

[Martyn]

I voted for roughly 30% more for a BMW. The reason is that I have many friends with thirty year old Beemers with 6 figures on the odometer that start easily and are ridden to Canada. That sort of longevity simply does not exist with other makes.

I have a 26 year old R100RT, & I still love it. As I was sat at the side of the road last week with a "broken" R1150RT - yes, the dreaded clutch spline failure - waiting for recovery, I was wishing I'd taken it that day.
Martyn

[Beemeridian]

46

[BMRBIKR]

Whew......thanks 'jacket!


......I was ....almost!.....gonna SELL my RT tomorrow!.......




..........Now...I'll just enjoy it....

[Biff's R]

One thought to a portion of the $ increase is the change in the exchange rate between the euro and the dollar. BMW pays it's suppliers, and employees, in euros. A 20% change in the exchange rate would probably affect the final sale price.

Many other things that the Germans have to deal may not be not experienced in the USA and Japan. ie. mandated wage rates, unemployment benefits, payroll taxes, etc...

One thing you will see of the prices of BMW bikes is too high is the low interest rates, free accessories, etc...

[dallara]

Wow...

Interesting Poll results so far (as of Sunday morning, 10/09/2005).

27 votes in, so let's take a look at what these numbers mean in the context of the Yamaha FJR-1300-A that was part of the subject of the original post, shall we?

29% of those who have voted (8 folks) have said they would pay 10% more for a Beemer than a competitor (and hey, I was one of these voters, BTW). Since the Yamaha FJR-1300 has an MSRP of $13,499.00 that would mean that the voters in this group would gladly pop for around $14,849.00 for a BMW RT.

48% of the poll participants in (13 votes) would pay about $16,199.00, which kind of makes sense since that's about where the old R-1150-RT was price-positioned compared to the FJR in the past... (are you paying attention BMW???)

14% (4 voters) would pay as much as approx. $17,549.00 in a direct comparison between an FJR and an RT. Interesting... Why, you may ask is this interesting? Keep reading...

0% of the poll so far would pay $18,899.00 for a 2006 BMW R-1200-RT over a 2006 Yamaha FJR-1300-A. What makes this interesting? Well, that $18,899.00 represents actually a little *LESS* than what a new R-1200-RT would actually cost, over the base MSRP price, one would pay for the RT after tacking on just a coupole of BMW's "options"... Fact is, the "price as tested" in most of the moto-mags has been running a tick over $19,000 when they have evaluated the new R-1200-RT and have "trip computer', ESA, etc. tacked on...

Now there are a couple of voters (7%) who don't care how much BMW decides to crank the price up over the competition - they will pay whatever "Roundel Tax" BMW decides is necessary to buy into the "Propellor Class". I have to respect you two guys, though I don't understand your reasoning.

So, has BMW actually reached the limits of what they can charge in the marketplace and still maintain owner loyalty and market share?

Who knows, the sample size is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too small to make any truly relevant determination. But it is interesting that here on this board, in a place where one would guess there are actually *MORE* devout and dedicated Beemer-philes than in the general population, that it appears that BMW may be stretching their "street cred" to right at the breaking point...

Just my two deutsche marks...

Cheers!

Dallara

[arkline]

I'm not sure that the price of these bikes tracks the euro/dollar exchange rate. I think the pricing is significantly different for the same bike if you live in Europe, Britain, or the US. Whatever the market will bear.

I think there is a definite change in the target audience for Beemers. Its not the rice rocket crowd exactly, 'cause you can get a significantly performance oriented bike from Japan for way less than $18K. The 'ABusa lists for less than 11K buckarettes and is a tried and true hauler. Same with the "generic" UJMs running around 1000ccs. Very sophisticated rides with much more adjustibility of suspension as the price goes up. But not coming close to 18K.

I think that BMW is looking to attract a buyer whose solvency or credit is not in question. Who may equate brand with percieved value. Who is maybe a little younger than most of us on this board. Who may have ridden a Japanese bike in the past, but now has the disposable income (I've never really understood that phrase ) to have a ride of distinction...Engineered to be some sort of perfection that gives said owner some cachet when riding with similar, like minded buyers. They (BMW) have never had much of a percentage of the market here in the US and they aren't competing on volume, so to remain viable they have to make their nut in a different way.

No problem for me, though. Cause I make my own decisions based on my own criteria of value. As do most of the folks on this board. When I bought my R, the price in constant dollars wasn't much over what I paid for my Commando in 1974.

If they had used the "How to boil a frog" method in raising prices this whole conversation might not have happened. You know how to boil a frog doncha. You stick him in a pot full of cold water and begin to raise the temp so slowly that he never notices that its so hot he's going to croak...

[dallara]

Hey, Ron ( "The" Arkline)...

I th-th-think you are definitely on to something in your analysis...

BMW may very well be going after that niche of riders who have had Jap bikes, but now have some more age and moolah and so have decided they finally want something "apart" from the crowd... and they see BMW bikes much like a lot of people see BMW cars - excellent performance (if not the bleeding edge of it) and a bit of mystic "snob" appeal... or as you more diplomatically put it - "cachet".

Reading some of the moto-monthlies the past couple of days has had me wondering a bit about whether they will actaully succeed in that strategy in the motorcycle marketplace, however...

Take the recent issue of "Sport Rider" where they compare the K-1200-S to the Kawasaki ZX-12-R and Suzuki Hayabusa... The Beemer costs $17,695.00, whereas the Kawasaki goes for $11,299.00 and the Suzuki for a bargain-basement price of $10,999.00. Despite the higher price of the BMW it got soundly trounced in every measureable performance catagory, was the last bike picked ot be on if you were either in town or in the twisties, and no one in the test even liked the "new" Hossack front end. It made a few points for being *maybe* the best touring mount of the three, but only just... And not enough *just* to justify its stratospheric price difference (over $6,000.00 more than either of the others!!!)

Even more interesting was the recent "Cycle World" comparo of 8 "GT" bikes... which included both the 2006 BMW K-1200-S and a 2005 (!!!) Yamaha FJR-1300-A. If you read carefully you will note the Beemer scored no 1st place votes, nor any 2nd place votes, and was panned for everything from its clunky gearbox (why can't BMW figure gearboxes out? Everybody else on the planet has save for them and H-D... even the Italians) to its front end - again! From how I read the article the Beemer essentially finished dead-last in the comparo... Why? And why especially after you factor in it was by far the most expensive bike in the test. Even the Aprilia (isn't it made in Europe, as is the Triumph? So how come the "exchange rate" isn't jacking their prices like BMW's??????????????? ) only goes for $12,999.00 (with bags standard), and the Triumph for $11,499.00 (equipped with bags) cam in much cheaper... In this test the BMW K-1200-S went for an *EYE-POPPING* $19,893.00 once it had bags, ESA, etc. on it!!! That's shaking the tree at $20,000.00, before tax, title, and license...

It gets even weirder when you compare the comparo winning Yamaha FJR-1300 to the BMW K-1200-S...

The BMW K-1200-S makes 146.3 HP (at a crank dizzying 10,200 RPM) at the rear wheel, and 84.7 ft/lbs (at 8,475 RPM) of torque... It also "only" weighs 541 lbs. wet.

By comparison, the Yamaha FJR-1300-A weighs 609 lbs. wet, and makes "only" 124.7 HP (at a much lower 7,850 RPM than the 10,200 for the Beemer), but more torque - 88.3 ft/lbs (again at a lower 7,025 RPM).

Now riddle me this, Batman...

The Beemer makes more horsepower, and within 4 ft/lbs of torque... Weighs 68 lbs. (12%) "LESS*, but yet gets shaded in the 1/4 mile - 10. 96 @ 126 MPH for the Beemer vs. 10.93 @ 123 MPH for the Yamaha - and gets slightly tagged in the 0-60 MPH race - 2.9 sec. for the BMW vs. 2.8 sec. for the Yamaha... *AND* the Yamaha even gets better mileage? (34.1 MPG vs. 38.2 MPG)? ? ?

Now this is BMW's *FLAGSHIP PERFORMANCE* motorcycle... The one BMW said would challenge the perfomance kings like the Hayabusa... The one they say will "Pass Cessnas" in their own ads... Yet it has trouble handling Yamaha's sport-touring challenger to the BMW R-1150/1200-RT series? Heaven forbid if they ever compare the BMW K-1200-S to something so mundane as a Yamaha FZ-1...

And the "as tested" difference in price?

2006 BMW K-1200-S (with bags and all) - $19,893.00

2005 Yamaha FJR-1300 - $13,199.00 (2006 model price - $13,499.00)

Is the BMW really *WORTH* 50+% more than the Yamaha when the only place it can best the FJR is on top speed?

I dunno...

Maybe to you, but certainly not to me...

Just my two wampum...

Cheers!

Dallara

(edited to correct my previous error of calling the BMW K-1200-S an "R-1200-S". My apologies for any previous confusion. Thanks for pointing out my mistake, Biff!)

[Biff's R]

Is the R1200S out yet? I assume you mean the K1200S.

I also read the article in Cycle World, and most of the testers complained about the heat you felt while riding the FJR in traffic. It also showed that the 2006 FJR had some improvements in the heat shield area, but I may still be nervous about cooking the "boys".

50% more could be worth it, if the FJR still has the heat issue.

[dallara]

Big *WHOOPS*, Biff...

You are exactly right. I meant to say "K-1200-S" every time I said R-1200-S above... I will go back and edit that post ASAP.

My sincerest apologies if I confused anybody.

On the subject of the FJR's heat issues...

Yes, Biff - it has concerned me in the past, and it is probably why I don't already have a 2005 FJR-1300.

However, two things...

1.) I have ridden two FJR-1300's ( a 2004 and a 2005), and both in pretty severe South Texas heat. I have to be honest and say I never noticed any excessive heat, but... I did not ride either one very long, and though I did ride them both in some stop-and-go traffic (which is supposed to be where the heat gets really bad...), I didn't ride them in that very much. I must also say that I rode both in street shoes and jeans, and simply a button-up short-sleeved shirt (alogn with a helmet, of course) because the rides happened when I had just been visiting never intending to ride anything.

2.) I am only looking at the new 2006, and from my research it appears that Yamaha has made very serious efforts to solve this issue... In talking to my dealer and my contact at Yamaha in California much about the 2006 has changed... *MUCH* larger, curved radiator with dual fans. Larger "oil cooler" heat exchanger in the radiator. Some re-routing of the coolant passages. Heavier and more insulation under the tank, along with a panel at the rear of the tank to keep you legs from contacting it (you can actually see this in the pictures on Yamaha's website). More intake and exhaust venting internally in the fairing. A larger opening in the fairing in and around the front wheel. A redesigned front fender to aid airflow. Evidently even the exhaust system is changed quite a bit to reduce heat. Some air gaps to allow heat to escape from under the tank. Sides of the fairing adjustable to vent hot air in summer and retain some heat in the winter. Even changes in the fuel injection mapping to reduce heat...

Seems they are at least *TRYING* address the problem...

I dunno'... If I get one and don't like I guess I can always sell it and start the search over. Right now, though, it definitely looks like the best choice for what I want to do and seems like a far, far better deal for the money than anything else out there...

Kind of like my R-1150-R was when I bought it!

Cheers!

Dallara

[Beemeridian]

37

[dallara]

Hey, Yellowjacket...

My dealer was telling me that this last year (really this past summer - 2005) Yamaha produced some extra FJR-1300's, all ABS models (in 2005 you could still get the FJR with or without ABS), and offered them for open ordering. This was the batch I missed this past summer...

In other words, no PDP ordering on the batch. When he told me about it back in August he said Yamaha just sent him out an e-mail telling him that "X" number of FJR's would be available, first come-first serve. When I started having discussions with him about the PDP program on the 2006's he said that his Yamaha rep told him that 2006 would be much the same as 2005... That once they got the PDP program out of the way for the first 2006 FJR-1300-AE's (the electric shift models, due for delivery in May 2006) that Yamaha would probably gauge how many more FJR's they could sell prior to 2007 model introduction and spin off that many and offer them up to the dealers that wanted them.

If you want a 2006 FJR early (like in March for the FJR-1300-A, or in May for the FJR-1300-AE) you still have to do the PDP deal, but later you should see dealers with them on the floor.

That said, my local dealer ordered 3 FJR's last year under his own name just so he could have some in stock, and places like D&H do that for a bunch of them, so you can usually find them on a dealer's floor somewhere all year after the first ones are released.

Cheers!

Dallara

[Danny Noonan]

Hey, Dallara, isn't there an FJR message board somewhere that you could join? Fer chrissake, there are like four different posts here about you buying an FJR and how much cheaper with just as much power it is. It's a Jap bike. Big friggin' deal. It's cheap because it's Japanese. Surprise. This is the R1150R board. It sometimes has other brand interest. You are kind of taking it too far. All you're posts are excessively long and are "just your two dinero" or whattaver, but they are just about your new Jap bike. Jeebus. Enjoy it and all yer new Jap bike friends over at the FJR forum. You can all discuss the tinfoil and foam it takes to dissipate the heat and keep them quiet.