Clutch advise needed.

R4R&R · Post by **R4R&R** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 9:29 pm

Thanks for sharing the pictures. From what it looks like, the slave cylinder is accessed in the back of the transmission? I expected it to be inbetween the trans and engine, requiring transmission removal.

Sunbeemer · Post by **Sunbeemer** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 10:13 pm

Thanks for the follow-up - interesting and good news about your clutch! Did they replace or try to clean the felt washer?

Post by **zooomart** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 12:25 pm

DJ,
I would seem you are working with a good dealer. I assume they installed the #20 and will replace it with the right part for one price!

Good to see a dealer putting priority on getting you back on the road

def38 · Post by **def38** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 12:37 pm

Yes, this dealer is attempting to service the customer. Nice work.

I am surprised that the tech did not notice the high clutch lever pull needed to actuate the clutch after he performed the work...this would be my first check after I had completed the job.

Did they tell you the work was a band-aid to get you back on the road or did you discover the incorrect part after you had left the shop?

Very interesting situation.

Post by **iowabeakster** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 6:37 pm

oooohhhh yucky.

Post by **DJ Downunder** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 6:58 pm

I note from the photo that there is a rubber seal showing in one groove. Was there evidence of a rubber seal in the other empty groove?

Also, what is that big ball bearing assembly in the previous photo?

That's how it came apart..and you're right..it does looks like a second rubber seal may be missing..I'd love to see inside another to check that.

That big ball bearing was just on the bench in the workshop..and nothing to do with my bike..It's the same rear bearing that can fail on our bikes..They did a service on a guys bike that was about to do a big trip and they noticed while rotating the wheel (on the center stand) they could feel a slight indexing (sort of notching) and this is a sign that the bearing is on the way out..So they changed it for him just in case it failed on his trip.

Thanks for sharing the pictures. From what it looks like, the slave cylinder is accessed in the back of the transmission? I expected it to be in between the trans and engine, requiring transmission removal.

Yes it sits at the back of the engine and it pushes a shaft through to the clutch (I think)..and does not require transmission removal to get to it.

Thanks for the follow-up - interesting and good news about your clutch! Did they replace or try to clean the felt washer?

I'm not sure..I'll ask them..I think the felt washer must sit on the other side of the case or bearing that that grease and gunk came from..If so the welt washer will still be there and will be changed when I have the clutch plate replaced (in the future)..and the transmission will need to come apart for that.

DJ,
I would seem you are working with a good dealer. I assume they installed the #20 and will replace it with the right part for one price! Good to see a dealer putting priority on getting you back on the road

Yes they were good..They thought they had fitted the correct part..and it was not till they did a road test that they noticed that the clutch lever was very heavy..and they then noticed the different numbers on the outside of the slave cylinder...They rang BMW and all their stock was the same (labeled wrong from the BMW factory/warhouse)..BMW said that they will send out the correct one and in the meanwhile it will do no harm to run with it..with the only difference being the heaviness of the clutch due to the smaller inside diameter.

So I'm using it now...BTW..they left a message on my phone yesterday to say that the correct part had come in and I can arrange for them to swap it over at my conveniance...There will be no extra cost to me...and I think it's odd that the service center has to wear the cost of doing the replacement because of an error that BMW made with its incorrect packaging.

Yes, this dealer is attempting to service the customer. Nice work.

I am surprised that the tech did not notice the high clutch lever pull needed to actuate the clutch after he performed the work...this would be my first check after I had completed the job.

Did they tell you the work was a band-aid to get you back on the road or did you discover the incorrect part after you had left the shop?

Very interesting situation.

He did notice it but was not sure what was going on..at first...and yes they did tell me that it was a band-aid fix if I want to take the bike..or just leave it there till they fix it properly when the correct part came in..I chose to take it.

When I take it back next week I will ask more about that felt washer...and for any of you guys that own an 1100 and ever have a clutch plate done I would ask them to also fit that felt washer..just for the piece of mind..

DJ

def38 · Post by **def38** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 7:04 pm

Revisiting the photo of the defective slave cylinder in pieces, I believe you had a factory defective unit. That second groove looks identical to the inner groove and leads one to believe that there should be a lip seal in place there...if not, why the second groove? There is plenty of spring pressure from the clutch to force the piston back as the clutch is engaged so, I would not buy the explaination from the dealer "That's the way they are made" unless they can show you another identical cylinder with only one lip seal. I would inquire of your dealer "How many lip seals should the slave cylinder have on the piston"?

Yours had only one.

Post by **CycleRob** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 11:19 pm

I can't recall ever seeing 2 separate seals on any disassembled Jap bike slave piston. The BMW's groove is likely a grease reservoir -or- for debris collection and weight saving. We may never know unless a new one is taken apart. The fact that no individual replacement parts are available means they factored in the slave housing's service lifespan, difficulty to replace the slave unit and cost of the entire unit to come to their 1 part number decision.

Sunbeemer · Post by **Sunbeemer** » Wed Aug 08, 2007 2:40 pm

I found a diagram of the clutch control assembly that shows where the felt ring is located around the push rod, but it only shows a complete, unexploded view of the slave cylinder, so we still don't know how many piston seals are in there...but I think just one should do fine!

The diagram is at http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do ... g=21&fg=10

You should have a strong left-hand grip by the time you get your slave cylinder re-replaced! (or is your clutch on the right downunder?)

Post by **DJ Downunder** » Wed Aug 08, 2007 6:25 pm

Thanks Rich..

..It's interesting that they show the felt washer on the list as part number #15..but the parts on the diagram only go up to #14.

Maybe they are using a diagram of an 1100 so that's why it's not shown.

DJ

01 HANDLE UNIT LEFT 1 06/2001 32727650779 +core
01 HANDLE UNIT LEFT 1 07/2001 32717657183 +core
02 CLUTCH LEVER SCHWARZ 1 32727657147 +core
03 HOLLOW BOLT M10X1 CR/SW 1 34322331540
04 GASKET RING A10X13,5-CU 2 07119963072 $0.17
05 CLUTCH CABLE, INPUT/OUTPUT CYLINDER 1 09/2003 21522333411 +core
05 CLUTCH CABLE, INPUT/OUTPUT CYLINDER STAHLFLEX 1 09/2003 21527682151
ONLY APPLIES TO
-- HOLLOW BOLT M10X1 CR ? 09/2003 34322331539
06 OUTPUT CYLINDER CLUTCH D=24 1 21522335061 +core, See SI 2101198(796)
07 ROD L=270MM 1 21527659113 +core
ONLY IN CONJUNCTION WITH
-- FELTRING 1 23211230440 $3.01
08 FILLISTER-HEAD SCREW M 6X18 3 23002332975
09 HOLLOW BOLT M 6X17 2 21522332605
10 GASKET RING 4 21522332604
FOR VEHICLES WITH
SPECIAL MODEL COMFORT R850R = NO
X115A=NO
11 CLUTCH VENT PIPE 1 09/2003 21522333455 +core
11 CLUTCH VENT PIPE 1 09/2003 21527682150
12 VENTILATION SCREW 1 32722333158
13 CABLE STRAP L=200MM/B=3,6MM 5 61131367599 $0.50
14 GASKET 1 23122352156 See SI 2101198(796)
15 FELTRING 1 23211230440 $3.01

Sunbeemer · Post by **Sunbeemer** » Wed Aug 08, 2007 6:35 pm

Way down in the bottom center-left of the diagram is a split tubule labelled #15. Looks like it can be replaced without having to remove the pushrod (since it's split?)

Post by **DJ Downunder** » Wed Aug 08, 2007 6:55 pm

Doh!..You're right..Looks like I need glasses..I was looking for a round washer..It's more of a sleave isn't it.

I just checked my invoice and it shows a.."sealing washer special"..$3.52...I guess that's it.

I feel better knowing that the felt washer was changed..It must have been a bit yucky.

I have my bike booked in for next week to have the correct one fitted.

btw I'm still changing gears with only two fingers pulling the clutch so it's not that bad.

DJ

Post by **OU812** » Wed Aug 08, 2007 7:05 pm

Rock on DJ!

Post by **DJ Downunder** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 3:32 am

We have a happy ending..

She's all fixed now....with the corect part..(#24)..and I have a nice light clutch again.

Just for my own piece of mind I asked them if they had an old one that we could take apart so I could see if there should be a second seal on
that second groove.

Like def38 asked.

Revisiting the photo of the defective slave cylinder in pieces, I believe you had a factory defective unit. That second groove looks identical to the inner groove and leads one to believe that there should be a lip seal in place there...if not, why the second groove?

Nope!...it was the same.

DJ

Sunbeemer · Post by **Sunbeemer** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 11:46 am

Groov

y!

Arbreacames · Post by **Arbreacames** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 4:37 pm

DJ Downunder wrote:This pic shows the nifty trick that they do..They cut a small slot in the bottom of the gasket that will allow fluid to drip out if the slave cylinder starts to leak..and give a tell-tail sign that it needs replacing before any damage is done.

If BMW had thought of that, they would have saved my clutch! In my case, gearbox oil leaked onto the pushrod, saturated the felt, and spoiled the clutch. With Dj's mod, I would have spotted the problem right away!

Sunbeemer · Post by **Sunbeemer** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 10:32 pm

Hey Carlos, where was the gearbox oil leaking from, and how did it get on the pushrod?

Post by **CycleRob** » Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:29 am

When I lube my clutch hub splines in a few months I will drill and tap a weep hole in the transmission case aluminum at the 6 O'clock position. Then screw in a drilled thru bolt so I can plug a drain hose on it to let the oil out at the right footpeg. I can even use the old unused battery vent hose for it. It's still in position.

The Advrider guys seemed to have started the drill the hole idea. I'll just make it neater and speed up leak detection to the day it starts.

Post by **challey** » Wed Aug 15, 2007 9:04 am

I'm a little confused about the weep hole and can't really see it.
What I think I see in one of DJ's pictures is a notch in the gasket at about the 6 o'clock position. What Cycle Rob seems to be suggesting though is a hole drilled into the case and connected to the outside by a drip tube.
Is this right?

Charlie

Post by **DJ Downunder** » Wed Aug 15, 2007 10:38 am

What I think I see in one of DJ's pictures is a notch in the gasket at about the 6 o'clock position. What Cycle Rob seems to be suggesting though is a hole drilled into the case and connected to the outside by a drip tube.
Is this right?

Charlie...I think you're right...

A notch in the gasket would work as a weep hole.....I like CycleRobs idea...Maybe a clear plastic drip tube might be a good idea also.

DJ