another victim-clutch splines; beyond disappointed

[WorkinMan]

As for WorkinMan's question, there was an article concerning splines in an issue of BMW Owner's News published by BMWMOA sometime in the last six months. The discussion focused on proper lubrication. Apparently, some bikes that have received no maintenance have rusted splines at 10,000 miles while others look perfect at 60,000 miles. The article discusses proper lubrication, service intervals, etc. It also discusses the relative difficulty of performing the task.

But that is not an item on the maintenance schedule, right? Why would lubrication even be an issue at 10,000 miles unless there was a manufacturing problem.

To me, the worst part about this is BMW's denial that there is any issue.

I have used this example here before, but we have a GMC Yukon XL with almost 90,000 miles. At around 63,000 miles the transmission went, leaving my wife and one of the kids stranded on a busy highway. We do not tow anything, and we had all the scheduled maintenance done. A heavy duty transmission like this should not fail at 63K miles. It was out of warranty, but GM offered us a choice of a rebuilt transmission for free, or a brand new one for a $100 deductible. I took the new one for $100. That was my total cost to fix the problem, including labor. Yes, I would buy another GM product. I don't expect perfection, but I do expect a manufacturer to admit there is a problem if something fails prematurely.

Not to disagree with you by any means, but BMW isn't the only one out there that does this. I have heard of some of the Japanese manufacturers stating that burning a quart of oil every few hundred miles is normal and acceptable. On the other hand, as a former Honda technician, I have seen Honda replace fairings that were damaged due to the owner forgetting their disc lock, replacing engines that had OBVIOUSLY been run under water, and repairing bikes that were out of warranty. It's called "Good Will" and it goes a LONG way towards brand loyalty. This spline issue is OBVIOUSLY a design flaw that BMW should address. (I wouldn't hold my breath...) Again, I guess I'll just have to enjoy my BMW and see what happens. It hasn't happened to ME yet, so I'll give them the benefit of the doubt until it does.

[Rog(UK) - Yorkshire Dales]

I'm playing Devil's Advocate here and my reply does not link with the unfortunate instance of spline failure by the original poster who, even after cherishing his bike and riding it sympathetically, is faced with a large repair bill.

The trouble is that there is an indeterminate number of riders who suffer spline failure who have no mechanical sympathy and frequently try to wheelie their bikes away from the traffic lights. Even 'lugging' it in too low a gear can exacerbate the problem. (there's nothing wrong with 2000 revs at light throttle opening, but there IS whent just a smidgen above that, if you see what I mean).

As it happens, I had a look at the input splines on a spare gearbox from a Moto Guzzi Spada 3. I can't remember exactly, but it was about 7cms diameter - as opposed to..... er ....what,less than 3 cms on the BM......

Ummmmm. Perhaps I haven't done that good a job of playing Devil's Advocate!


Ride safely,

Rog

[AndyRR]

My question is this... I have decided that somewhere around the 30,000 mile mark, I'm going to pull the back of the bike apart and check the splines. I read somewhere that this can be done in a weekend, and God knows we all have a weekend to spare in the middle of the winter, so I'm just going to bite the bullet and tear into it when it gets some miles on it. I would rather do that than tear up the shaft and REALLY have a mess on my hands. Is this the way to go about this, or should we just keep riding until it blows and we have a huge repair bill on our hands?

I would definitely recommend checking in the off-season. My experience can be found here:
http://r1150r.org/board/viewtopic.php?f ... 25&start=0

I tried hard to have an improved shaft made. It was almost exactly a year ago that I finally gave up and installed the factory parts after doing my best to correct alignment. 10k+ trouble free miles since then. I'll plan on tearing it apart for inspection next winter.

62k is an odd time for a failure. Wondering if a previous owner replaced the spline and sold it?

[Oilhead]

62k is an odd time for a failure. Wondering if a previous owner replaced the spline and sold it?

What do you mean Andy? Are you saying that it should fail much earlier or later than that?

[Xdot]

Help me understand this problem. Is it the splines on the transmission input shaft that fail, or is it on the clutch-plate side? Input shaft splines should never fail unless you've beefed a motor far beyond what the transmission was designed to produce and are doing burnouts ten times a day. Never heard of input shaft spline failure on anything! Should be a bomb-proof part.

If it is the input shaft splines then I guess the notches in the clutch plate basically shear off the splines and the clutch plate just freewheels, huh. Seems the problem isn't the input shaft but the clutch plate. Sounds to me like the mating surface is too narrow- like the lugs on the clutch need to be wider to spread the force out over more spline area. Or is it a hardness problem? If the clutch metal is significantly harder than the input shaft metal it will grind the splines away until there's nothing left. Or is the failure catastrophic? There's no erosion of the splines and they just fail one day when you're pulling away from a light.

If it happens I guess you're stuck replacing the input shaft which usually means a complete transmission rebuild. That would suck.

John

[iowabeakster]

Xdot,

Your insight is pretty much on the money.

Here's the short version...

1. (design issue) For some reason, the tranny shaft splines do not fully engage (lengthwise) the clutch hub. Thus, the length of engagnement area is shortened... lowering the integrity of the mating parts. This is a real boo-boo by BMW.

2. (quality control issue) The failed parts from people's bikes who have suffered this failure, show a misalignment between the engine and tranny. This is really evident on the failed input shafts (uneven wear). So a portion of the mating are facing greater stress...further lowering the integrity.

3. The clutch hub is a softer part than the input shaft. But when it gives way (horrible grinding noise) inevitably the input shaft grinds to the point of needing replacement (if the uneven wear wasn't enough).


Here's the thorough version... Kudos to Boxermania.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=13563&start=0&hilit ... fcc795be46

And by the way, I realize the bike is new to you. Don't panic! It is a relaively rare issue (still too common though). This seems to across on all R1150 models (RT, GS, R, RS). RT's seem to have it happen the most (heaviest bike). Some bikes have pristine splines with well over 50K miles. Like Workingman (see posts above), I also am going to do an inspection/lube in the not too distant future. I plan on doing it around 30K miles also. If I see the unevern wear...oh man will my panties be in a bunch.

[Xdot]

Kind of stunning that there is no pilot bushing in the tail end of the crank. So is this an inevitable failure that everyone experiences - basically the primary failure mode of these bikes?

Oh well, at least being a motorcycle I can do the entire teardown and rebuild in my workshop. I hate tying up the driveway and carport!

[iowabeakster]

So is this an inevitable failure that everyone experiences - basically the primary failure mode of these bikes?

No, not at all... see the last paragraph that I added in my post above.

Maybe 1-3% of bikes has had this happen, so far. I expect that number to grow as the bikes accumulate miles.

Avoid popping wheelies! Wheelie popping guys have this happen the most.

[Beemeridian]

22

[Xdot]

Avoid popping wheelies! Wheelie popping guys have this happen the most.

LOL! I'll save the wheelies for my 165 pound trials bike! Believe me, that is not why I got a street machine!

[iowabeakster]

Beemeridian,

How the rider rode the machine would certainly affect the longevity of it's parts.

I completely agree with your thoughts about those parts taking a beating from drive-line lash. That lash is to be expected, and all of the drive-line parts should be able to handle normal usage.

I would say that the tranny input shaft is a lifetime part. It should last a typical (reasonable and responsible) rider the entire lifetime of the bike (say... 150,000 miles). That is what is so frustrating.

A person should expect to replace the clutch disc as the friction material wears out. Replacing the clutch disc and tranny input shaft before the clutch friction material is worn out? No way. That's entirely BMW's bad design/execution (assuming reasonable and responsible rider)!!!

I think the tranny shaft should last about as long as the engine crankshaft. The input shaft is not a part that is expected to have a usage limit.

[AndyRR]

No one has mentioned that a bike with 60,000 miles is beyond the likelihood of failure for manufacturer defect.

I did. Kind of.

62k is an odd time for a failure. Wondering if a previous owner replaced the spline and sold it?

What do you mean Andy? Are you saying that it should fail much earlier or later than that?

I'm saying that IF your bike has this issue, it usually fails in the 30 to 40k mile range. It was generally thought (by me at least) that if you make it past 50k or so, you are out of the woods. I certainly thought about replacing the parts and selling the bike when I had this issue at 35k. Mine hadn't failed yet, but it was going to. Not knowing the history of his bike, I was suggesting the possibility.

[CNorris]

I used to be one of you, cruising this site, reading about other's misfortune and thanking my lucky stars I wasn't one of those "1%-2%" who are going to suffer from this. When I did the 60K service with no sign of problems, I figured I had one of the good ones, and just kept riding. Ah, my riding style. I'm 45, with 30 years experience (280,000 street miles, well over 100K on BMWs; the R was my third, after an R75/7, which I put 50K on with no problems and an '88 K100RS, which I put 40K on with, you guessed, no problems), a wife, two kids, and an English teacher. No wheelies, in other words. Why it occured at 62K instead of earlier might just be because of my riding style. I'd expect maybe a clutch at this point. Maybe. In other words, I'm pretty easy on equipment. I'm not some clueless newbie.
My point is, this can happen to any of you, at any time. How are you going to know? I guess you can go in there and check and lube the splines, though whether that will prevent the failure still seems up in the air. Having done a lot of the service on the Airhead and K-bike, I can attest to the quality of product and engineering with these machines. They weren't perfect and I'm not pining for the "good old days" here. I really thought the Oilhead was a superior machine. In some ways it is. However, I think that to become competitive in the world market, BMW has had to cut costs. That was a $10,000 bike in '02, a good deal for a fine piece of German machinery. Well, there's no free ride, is there. I believe the spline and final drive issues are a result of this.
Make no mistake. I love (-d) this bike and took care of it like I was going to keep it forever (because I was). I don't think expecting 100K out of one of these is expecting too much. I would've paid more for the initial puchase to prevent this problem. I've had Audis go over 300K (two of 'em) and my '89 Volvo is at 200K, with no problems. Europeans usually make great vehicles. I'm not sure what I'm going to replace this bike with...
Again, best of luck to all the Oilhead riders. Keep checking those splines (if you're so inclined) and hope you've got one of the good ones, because when this bike is right, there's nothing like it.

[peterbulgar]

OK, friends, this is not the discussion I want to read two days before I leave on a 7k trip on my '04 R with 85k. (I've followed all the spline threads for a couple of years and I understand that it's a small percentage that fail.)

The original poster mentioned that he'd go back to a Japanese bike if he doesn't fix the BMW. I'd feel the same way, but what bike? As far as I know Honda does not make a comparable bike to the BMW R1150R. The ST is way too big and has a full fairing. I thought that the new NT700V would be a contender, but it has a small gas tank, it's heavy, and it's underpowered. Does anyone else besides Moto Guzzi make a "standard" with shaft drive?
peter '73 R75/5, '04 R1150RA, '06 Kawa EX-500 (my commuter, purchased recently)

[challey]

Craig --

I truly do feel your pain (re: the posts on my catastrophic wire harness failure last year). I still have not been able to get my '03 R with 28k back on the road and bought a Wee Strom to ease the 2-wheel jonesing.

The DL650 is worth serious consideration as an alternate. It is remarkably similar to the Roadster in that it is a great all-around machine with few serious flaws. While it is "only" a 650, it is not at all underpowered and can more than hold it's own in straight-line acceleration and slab cruising. It is also remarkably sure footed and can easily be made more so by the addition of an $80 fork brace (there's another big positive for the Suzuki - tons of relatively inexpensive farkles available). The stock seat is way better than the Roadster's, the standard mini-fairing and shield are quite effective and the combination of a fairly large tank (5.8 gals) and excellent mileage (well over 50 mpg on slab) gives it great range. It can also easily handle fire or gravel roads and even some sand (I wouldn't push the off-road stuff too far though). I just finished a 3 day weekend of 1000 or so miles on my Wee with a big smile on my face the whole time. The only real drawback to the bike is that it is chain drive. OK, truth be told the brakes could use improvement (the Roadster's are far better), the suspension is marginal (it's obvious where Suzuki cut costs) and it is a fairly tall bike (but for only a few bucks you can get lowering links to fix that - see the "inexpensive farkles" comment above). It is a very durable, low-maintenance bike with few weak points and a strong owner base. On a more personal note, it has a far, far better electrical system than the R bike.

IMO, well worth checking out, especially if price is an issue.

Charlie

[Oilhead]

I used to be one of you, cruising this site, reading about other's misfortune and thanking my lucky stars I wasn't one of those "1%-2%" who are going to suffer from this.

I have heard this 1, 2, 3% figure before myself. What I would like to know is, is this 3% of the total production of all R1150s? If so, then the actual figure of incidence should be much higher as I bet the majority of the R1150R never reach 30K+ miles.

[boxermania]

Every vehicle has its idiosyncrasies, however, in this case it appears that the list goes on and on.

For instance, I know that Boxer’s style was to get maximum life of the components, yes he had some issues, but he rode it for ~ 78K miles. CycleRob’s was fastidious maintenance and he sold it with ~ 62K miles. I made many modifications to mine, rode it in a spirited manner and never had any issues, sold it with 22K miles due to an extended oversea assignment.

Unfortunately other owners, as stated in my previous post have not been as fortunate, however, as far as I’m concerned, the backbreaker is the OEM’s lack of product stewardship and the owner’s trust on the vehicle.

[CNorris]

Charlie,
Thanks for the input on the DL650 - I'm going to see what's out there on the used/leftover market and it sounds like it'd suite my needs well. Chain drive doesn't bother me, having grown up with 'em, and the issues the R1150R has with its final drive (I'm not impressed). Plus, with O and X-ring technology, chains are a reliable, simple solution (my favorite kind). I found a leftover KLR650 but that's not the highway bike the Wee-Strom would be. I'm also considering the Bandit 1200, ZRX1100/1200, FZ-1 (first gen), Honda 919 type of bike. We'll see. I don't have a lot of money to play with here, but I don't want to miss a summer of riding.
I've decided to see if I can sell the bike as a parts bike for a week or so, and if I don't get any decent offers, I'm going to tear into it and try to fix it (with the encouragement of some of you and my mechanically inclined friends). I'm thinking this will take the bike off the road for the better part of a month, if not more (sounds like a lot more, Charlie; that's my fear). No doubt I'll be posting up here looking for help if this occurs, so prepare yourselves.
What are the chances it's just the clutch splines and not the transmission too? Slim to none? If the tranny splines are shot too, I'm thinking of just swapping out the tranny and selling my bad one as a core for someone who rebuilds 'em.
It's such a good bike when it's running (man does my engine run well!) but these flaws, which are unrecognized by the factory, are tough. It's like a supermodel with bad breath or something.
I'm going to contact the dealer where this bike came from (I'm the original owner), not expecting anything but to record it. I'll be writing BMW, too, for the same reason. Maybe the dealer will offer me a generous trade in but I doubt it.
Ride some miles for me...

[boxermania]

Craig
If you decide to take the bike appart you will find:

1) The clutch disk splines gone - Need a new clutch disc
2) The tranny input shaft splines worn, the degree of wear will depend on the mileage and prior use - With the miles on your bike I would assume the tranny input shaft will have to be replaced, if you want to get some useful service out of the repair.

I don't recall the cost of the parts offhand as I have been out of the loop for a bit, but I don't think it is more than $400. Of course the labor is the killer, but if you are mechanically inclined and can summon the help of someone that has been there, things can go faster.

In any event you are looking at a long weekend, BTW, I would also look at the clutch slave cylinder while the trany is out and replace it if there is any leaking, as that is another ugly snake that rears it's head now and again.

Check what I posted on the subject a few years back, makes for good reading

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=13563&start=0&hilit ... e+analysis

[Dr. Strangelove]

Will be watching this one.

Stella! has 63k on her and rides just fine. She gets the same use yours gets, commuting and touring, exploring. I feel the same way you do, complete with the push/pull, approach/avoidance, indecision/decision.

Good luck with the endeavor and the choices.

Whenever I have thought of replacing the R I keep coming back to two bikes, though...the R1200 and the 800ST. Don't see those on your list.

JOhn