BMW R1200R R1150R/T F800 K1200R R1100R/T R1250R RnineT Message Board

slightly off the current topic

that's a beautiful bike

There is not a doubt in my mind that BMW is working on a liquid cooled Boxer. I also believe the engine in the original post's link is that liquid cooled Boxer. I accept doubts regarding when/if it will see the light of day and in which exact shape. The reports are speculative because they are written by journalists.

It is more than plausible to me that an increased thirst for power, yet an also increased need for regulation with respect to environmental issues has put the air/oil cooled Boxer at its thermal limits. According to the more boring but also more informative German press only the heads will be liquid cooled.

xbpod wrote:I think water cooled engines tend to weigh less than air cooled for the same configuration and displacement size.

I doubt if you include all the parts of the water cooling if that's true.. and we don't have an air cooled engine - it's oil cooled. Air is the medium that removes heat from the radiator, just as it would if it was water cooled.

deilenberger wrote:

xbpod wrote:I think water cooled engines tend to weigh less than air cooled for the same configuration and displacement size.

I doubt if you include all the parts of the water cooling if that's true.. and we don't have an air cooled engine - it's oil cooled. Air is the medium that removes heat from the radiator, just as it would if it was water cooled.

What about all the ribs on the outside of the cylinders?

Air cooled twin cylinder motorcycles are my passion. Enough parts and bikes to last untill I'm gone.. Water cooled boxer is great but make it bigger, 1400, 1600cc's. No excuse for cubic inches I say. Alas I won't be able to afford one if and when they do one.

For some of us, motorcycles are emotional things, as are cars and boats and airplanes and houses and, and, and. Once the practical need is met, there needs to be an emotional connection. On some level that "thing" needs to speak to us. If it doesn't, if it simply meets our need, whatever the need may be, but leaves us cold or uncaring about its composition, its lines, its looks then it's simply a tool, an appliance.

I don't stand in the garage late at night or in the dead of winter with a beer in my hand and stare at my toolbox or the central vacuum canister, I stare at my motorcycle(s). Their mere looks can transport me to a sunny day in the twisties or a mountain pass hours away.

To me, and this is a completely personal opinion, a water cooled engine on a motorcycle with all its attendant plumbing needs lots of plastic covering it so that the appliance quotient is kept to a minimum.

Ludite or not, I love the lines and looks of a classically styled motorcycle and the R1200R has that in spades. YMMV.

Doug

"I don't stand in the garage late at night or in the dead of winter with a beer in my hand and stare at my toolbox or the central vacuum canister, I stare at my motorcycle(s). Their mere looks can transport me to a sunny day in the twisties or a mountain pass hours away."

Snag, I am completely with you on this one. A motorcycle is my comrade, my psychiatrist, my loyal friend, and even art. And many times, more reliable than a woman.

Roland

I have nothing against water cooling in general, I'm just curious why this was the route that was taken for the boxer engine in particular. I don't think increased performance was the main driver (there are the K bikes for that), chances are it's necessary to conform to increasingly strict emissions standards. If so, it sort of takes an elegant engineering solution (the fact that the cylinders stick out in the wind) and makes it irrelevant. But then, it's arguable that oil-cooling already did that 15 years ago.

deilenberger wrote:

xbpod wrote:I think water cooled engines tend to weigh less than air cooled for the same configuration and displacement size.

I doubt if you include all the parts of the water cooling if that's true.. and we don't have an air cooled engine - it's oil cooled. Air is the medium that removes heat from the radiator, just as it would if it was water cooled.

Even with all the extra's on a water cooled engine the weight saved due to the closer tollerences in the design of the engine will always allow it to be lighter.

Oil cooling is a poor alternative and only about 50% as efficient at removing heat as water. Also all engines are oil cooled to some extent

That said, I love my engine with fins and would not move to a water jacket and radiator

its just an evolution it was bound to happen if not now then later, look at Porsche.
I believe if and when BMW will introduce a water cooled R it will be just as good as the current one at least in terms of being reliable and able to go the distance, looks wise that's already personal choice and there is no wrong one.

Grey Thumper wrote:I have nothing against water cooling in general, I'm just curious why this was the route that was taken for the boxer engine in particular. it sort of takes an elegant engineering solution (the fact that the cylinders stick out in the wind) and makes it irrelevant. .

I think that BMW would gladly erase the boxer engine from its line up except for one thing -- those pesky customers. They tried it back in (I think) 84 and Guzzi had one of their best years. With a lot of hopla they produced the 'Last Edition' and the faithful went crazy. They still produced the small twins (65/80cc) but the 1000 was gone. With all the yelling and drama they brought the big twin back in 88 and then the 'Last Edition' owners sued them.
I guess it would be like taking the big aircooled V-twin away from the Harley guys and replacing it with a water cooled four.

Anyhow that's my read on why BMW keeps upgrading this engine design - one that their engeneering department declared irrelevent over two decades ago.

_____________________

mogu83 wrote:

Grey Thumper wrote:........I guess it would be like taking the big aircooled V-twin away from the Harley guys and replacing it with a water cooled four........_____________________

Uhhhhhh......That didn't work too well did it ?

deilenberger wrote:

xbpod wrote:I think water cooled engines tend to weigh less than air cooled for the same configuration and displacement size.

I doubt if you include all the parts of the water cooling if that's true.. and we don't have an air cooled engine - it's oil cooled. Air is the medium that removes heat from the radiator, just as it would if it was water cooled.

Umm no its an air cooled engine with oil cooled exhaust valves according to the manual. I have mentioned this to you before Don.

firstforward wrote: Umm no its an air cooled engine with oil cooled exhaust valves according to the manual. I have mentioned this to you before Don.

Correct me if I'm wrong (not counting spelling or grammar). So - the engine is air cooled but the exhaust valves are oil cooled. I know German engeneering is good but that is really really good. I wonder how they keep the cool oil that cools the valves from the rest of the engine.

I'm about to go and take that bastard apart to find out!
Hacksaw anyone??

mogu83 wrote: I think that BMW would gladly erase the boxer engine from its line up except for one thing -- those pesky customers.

True though. Wasn't the development of the K bikes (stating with the early 80's K100) BMW's attempt to get all of use to move over into water-cooled inline 4s?

firstforward wrote:

deilenberger wrote:

xbpod wrote:I think water cooled engines tend to weigh less than air cooled for the same configuration and displacement size.

I doubt if you include all the parts of the water cooling if that's true.. and we don't have an air cooled engine - it's oil cooled. Air is the medium that removes heat from the radiator, just as it would if it was water cooled.

Umm no its an air cooled engine with oil cooled exhaust valves according to the manual. I have mentioned this to you before Don.

Think you can scan and post that for us? I'm curious where BMW says this..

Found it in the service manual:

"Four-stroke opposed twin, air-cooled with oil-cooled exhaust ports, installed longitudinally, two overhead camshafts, electronic engine management"

Interesting description. Will poke around a bit more - I know somewhere there is a flow diagram of the two oil circuits in the engine..

mogu83 wrote:

Anyname wrote:BMW has said they will not build a 600RR. . Besides, the 600 sport bike market is very slow these days.

I don't know about that, I'm seeing more and more Suzuki Wee Stroms showing up at the Beemer rallys. I can only assume it's ex or current Beemer owners riding in on them.

MSRP $8,099 Watch out BMW I know a few Beemer riders that are lusting for one of these.

BMW already has the equivalent to a V-Strom (F650/800 GS). A 600 sport bike would be a smaller version of the 1000SS.

mogu83 wrote:

firstforward wrote: Umm no its an air cooled engine with oil cooled exhaust valves according to the manual. I have mentioned this to you before Don.

Correct me if I'm wrong (not counting spelling or grammar). So - the engine is air cooled but the exhaust valves are oil cooled. I know German engeneering is good but that is really really good. I wonder how they keep the cool oil that cools the valves from the rest of the engine.

No, German Engineering is not that good; it just appears to be good to some. How they keep that exhaust port oil separate from the rest of the engine is a mystery: , I am going to be racking my mind over that one, rest assured if I find out I will let you know. I know, maybe it's something that has got lost in the translation.

Seriously now; all engine’s use the engine oil to cool various components to some degree, the engine’s life started out as primarily cooled by air flow over the engine, I think it is arguable with the fitment of an oil radiator what takes precedence as a description. Clearly there was a major build up of heat on the exhaust side of things that needed further cooling assistance and the normal air flow over the engine was not able to extract enough heat, hence the fitment of an oil cooler. It is a fact that it is still described by BMW as primarily air cooled, so if you do not like that description take that up with BMW. Personally I think these engines are powerful enough as they do have other models that will fill that request for more power, it will be a shame when they change over to water-cooled, maybe it’s not for the power output but just to comply with the Euro 5 emissions as somebody has already stated. Would I buy a water cooled boxer?