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Re: Clutch Spline Failure Analysis
Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 9:07 pm
by awagnon
sweatmark wrote:Today's spline failure tidbit:
Talked off the record with a service guy at regional BMW shop, asked him point blank about number of spline failures seen at the store. Answer was "Hardly any, besides the police bikes which get ridden pretty hard. They have lots of input shaft and clutch replacements."
That's strange. An independent shop I use has seen a number of them. Perhaps people aren't taking them to the authorized BMW shops because the bikes are often out of warranty and they can get the work done elsewhere cheaper. I don't care how many the shop has seen, when it happened to me, it was 50% of my 1150 bikes. I'm just waiting on the other to crap out when it has as many miles as the first.
Re: Clutch Spline Failure Analysis
Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 11:17 pm
by CycleRob
Hardly any, besides the police bikes which get ridden pretty hard. They have lots of input shaft and clutch replacements."
I have a hunch that a lot of clutch slipping, like a police bike might see in stop-n-go city traffic, will overheat the entire clutch disk assembly enough to anneal and soften the steel female splines of the clutch disk's hub.
Re: Clutch Spline Failure Analysis
Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 4:34 am
by Croc
For info there are a couple of other boards watching spline failures. A chap on this one has had a positive result from the dealers.
http://www.bmbikes.org.uk/Forum/viewtop ... 3201#43201
This board also has a link to another board following these failures.
I plan to take mine into the dealer in a few months time (25000 miles now on the clock) and get a lube and inspection done as I am planning a trip to Holland in September and dont want this in the back of my mind all the way.
Croc
Re: Clutch Spline Failure Analysis
Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 7:24 am
by busithoth
Okay, I picked up the 2002 r1150r, and will be taking it to the Manhattan dealer on Tuesday for an oil/brake fluid change and inspection. I'll ask around the techs how much they've heard about it (though obviously it wasn't a make or break issue for me. too good a deal to pass up. 4400 miles, $6000, the thing looks showroom new, except for a cobweb I found on the center stand...)
I did notice that downshifting on this bike yields fast deceleration. I've been avoiding it for fear of the splines (plus the brakes rock on this bike, even non-ABS).
Re: Clutch Spline Failure Analysis
Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 1:48 pm
by Just-Beeming
Re: Clutch Spline Failure Analysis
Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 2:03 pm
by Just-Beeming
Likewise on September 12, 2007, on the R1150R forum I started a thread collecting info on those that had failures and the following was reported then:
EVmachina, 04 Roadster, failure at 17K miles
Tor1150r, 04’ R1150R, 2 failures, 39.9K and 66.7 K miles
Marty Wadd, 35K miles
Paul Mihalka 02 R1150R, failure at 29 K miles
JUST BEEMING 04 R1150R...FAILURE AT 41.6K MILES
Re: Clutch Spline Failure Analysis
Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:24 pm
by challey
Sorry to hear this Just-Beeming.
There was a post in the link that
Croc gave that offered what was said to be a better made replacement for BMW splines
http://www.sunshinecoast.ca/bmw/InputShaft.pdf.
Not cheap at just under $1,000 Canadian but I'm sure the BMW parts are just as costly.
Charlie
Re: Clutch Spline Failure Analysis
Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:22 pm
by iowabeakster
Carol,
What a bummer. I was going to ask if it happened on your way to WY (then I saw the other thread). It's good to hear that it wasn't 1000 miles from home. And you were looking forward to riding home on new Ohlin's...damn these slpines.
The fear is contagious... and I think I am getting it.
Re: Clutch Spline Failure Analysis
Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:40 pm
by sweatmark
Beeming,
Very sad to learn of your spline failure. Is the bike at the Tigard store? Did you talk to Scott about the driveline failure?
While you're at the big BMW rally, perhaps some type of informal poll could be taken regarding the R1150** spline problem. Surely the BMWMOA should help address this problem, as it affects an assumedly large percetage of its members.
Re: Clutch Spline Failure Analysis
Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 9:56 pm
by awagnon
sweatmark wrote:Surely the BMWMOA should help address this problem, as it affects an assumedly large percetage of its members.
I've been saying this all along. I think the MOA should be more proactive and demand BMWNA produce some real numbers on spline failure rates. Maybe we're all wrong and it's a small percent, but maybe it isn't. I think our national organization should represent us a little better on this type of issue. I know other brand user groups have been more proactive in demanding recalls or warranty coverage for flawed bikes.
Re: Clutch Spline Failure Analysis
Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 12:58 am
by sweatmark
I think the MOA should be more proactive and demand BMWNA produce some real numbers on spline failure rates.
Agreed. How about a letter-to-Editor campaign to bring the topic to the forefront? Or has the spine issue already received some ON magazine attention?
Re: Clutch Spline Failure Analysis
Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 8:01 am
by awagnon
It must be fairly common. On my way to the MOA rally, the first two RT riders I met had lost their splines at 20,000 miles and about 30,000 miles. Neither of them were aware there was a trend. They both thought it was an isolated failure, and because both bikes were over 36 months, they both paid out the wazoo to get them fixed. You can't tell me there isn't a problem with these bikes.
I will write a letter to the MOA as soon as I get home. I hope others will to.
Re: Clutch Spline Failure Analysis
Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 5:37 pm
by frbank6
This is a topic that so far has not affected me. I must admit, however, that I do lose sleep over it. Not that anyone is listening at BMW, but this is what I just sent them:
"I have a 2003 R1150RA. It is my first bike and was purchased largely as a result of BMW's reputation for durability and engineering. I have been a member of MOA and an active participant on the message boards. I have noted with increasing alarm the number and frequency of spline failures that are described on these sites. While I have not experienced these problems, I do want to make one thing clear. Should my bike turn out to have a spline failure and become another in a long list of "isolated incidents", it will most definitely be my last BMW.
If a problem exists with the drive line, I would expect BMW to step up and admit it might be related to a flaw in either design or metallurgy and offer to mitigate the expense of these repairs.
I work for a tractor and lawnmower manufacturer noted for exceptional quality. Over the last few years, several models of our tractors have developed hydrostatic transmission issues. Our response? A recall program and an extention of the existing warranty for an additional two years in some cases. I hope that BMW takes a similar stand regarding driveline failures."
Who knows...if they hear from enough of us, they might wake up.
Re: Clutch Spline Failure Analysis
Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 5:42 pm
by NoRRmad
A good letter.
Where did you send it?
I've got an '02 Roadster with 41,000 miles, (
) and would like to send one too.
Re: Clutch Spline Failure Analysis
Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 5:48 pm
by frbank6
I went to the BMW motorcycles site and used the 'contact us' link at the bottom.
Re: Clutch Spline Failure Analysis
Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:40 pm
by frbank6
Re: Clutch Spline Failure Analysis
Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:04 pm
by frbank6
The tactfully-worded reply from BMW:
"Thank you for contacting BMW Motorrad USA regarding your quality concerns with your 2003 BMW R 1150 R. You may rest assured, we do everything in our power to consistently improve the quality of our BMWs.
For more than eight decades, BMW has produced exceptional vehicles people love to own and drive. This tradition continues today in our current models winning recognition and acclaim from respected industry sources. In addition, our engineering and quality departments follow a systematic and efficient problem solving/improvement process. This is to achieve the best possible customer satisfaction and to actively control the fault elimination process in order to guarantee high product quality.
We increasingly extend efforts to maintain and improve the quality of our products as well as the reliability of our services.Our national authorized BMW center network and team of BMW-trained service technicians are prepared to support our valued customers. We stand behind every BMW we build.
If you have any further questions, please respond to this e-mail or contact the Customer Relations and Services Department at 1-800-831-1117. Our office hours are Monday through Friday from 9:00 A.M. to 9:00 P.M., Eastern Standard Time."
On the bright side...at least they answered.
Re: Clutch Spline Failure Analysis
Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 8:08 pm
by sweatmark
Dear BMW Motorrad,
My wife and I have become loyal fans of the BMW marque. Curently, we each ride an R1150R, our 5th and 6th consecutive BMW motorcycles following two decades of Japanese bikes. Motorrad's rich history, legend reliability, and both progressive and practical design were the reasons for our 1st BMW purchase; a balanced blend of engineering and elegance and excitement has earned our business over this past decade.
Unfortunately, one of the strengths of the BMW brand is now in question: the reliability of the Boxer bikes, specifically the R1150 machines that are suffering catastrophic driveline failure in ever greater numbers. Insofar as we entrust our riding enjoyment, vacation days, even our lives to the mechanical integrity of our R1150Rs, we take this issue of reliability very seriously. And what shakes our faith in BMW more than anything is a complete lack of information or reassurance from the factory - and through the dealer network - that this drivetrain problem is being addressed.
We are riders first, BMW fans second: if our loyalty to BMW Motorrad proves misplaced, then we will search diligently for a replacement... we sincerely hope we don't have to. Please provide us a path forward for parts replacement/upgrades and maintenance procedures that will remedy the problems of clutch/transmission input splines and rear drive bearing failures.
OK, betcha a buck we get exactly the same response as above.
Re: Clutch Spline Failure Analysis
Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 10:07 pm
by awagnon
I don't believe BMW admits their mistakes. They never admitted single spark boxers surged. They never admitted "lubricated for life" final drives was a mistake. They just change the design in subsequent models. Unfortunately, those who have bikes that surge, eat their splines (my RT has done both), or have final drive failure are left on their own.
Re: Clutch Spline Failure Analysis
Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 9:37 am
by reidmct
frbank6 wrote:We stand behind every BMW we build.
Empty words?
