BMW R1200R R1150R/T F800 K1200R R1100R/T R1250R RnineT Message Board

So, I've been suffering for some time with a leaking final drive (FD; aka "leaking pumpkin" per CycleRob), since I got the bike last year actually. But lately it's seemed to be getting worse, so that my suffering included frequent whiffs of burning oil off "whatever the thing under neath that replaced the cat converter" is called, and more frequent wiping of the black road dirt-oil coating of the rear wheel and other parts. I know the rule is: "They all do that, live with it", but I figured once it started bothering me this much it was time to get it fixed. So with much trepidation, I scheduled an appointment for my R's first ever session with our dealership. I bought the 04 R1150R at 9.5 K last May 07, it has 16.5 K on it now.

So, a week latter I returned from DC and called to check on progress. They asked me to come by. They showed me the somewhat-corroded compression ring on the back of the pinion gear and said they thought a proper repair would entail replacing the input pinion and, because they come as a matched pair, the crown wheel. Being somewhat more familiar with the parts than the dealership, I suggested that the bearings, compression ring, etc. on the input pinion were removable and we could just replace the corroded compression ring (cost about $12). They looked it up in their book, and behold, I was right! So that became the plan. And the plan was executed, and I picked the bike up a few days latter (they had to order special tools to complete the job), paying about $400 for mostly labor.

You can imagine my disappointment to note that the FD continues to leak. I called and asked to come by for a consult, which I did today. They checked the FD level (I already checked it) and said it was exactly where they put it. The mechanic speculated that the earlier leak had weeped up into the swing arm and regretted NOT removing the swing arm and flushing it out while he had things apart. He suggested, due to my concern, that I put the bike back in the shop to have this done, about 2 hr labor he says.

So here's where I am: I actually believe the dealership mechanic is right---that leaking oil from the FD leak migrated up into the swing arm, and the oil I'm currently seeing is coming from there. Both the FD and Tranny oil levels seem to be holding constant, so it doesn't appear the oil is coming from these sources. The caveat here is that a little bit of oil can seem like a lot when spread around the rear wheel, tires, exhaust, fenders etc. I probably need to watch levels a little longer to be sure something important is not leaking. I'm at a decision point of whether I should spend more $$$ to get the swing arm cleaned out (they would replace the rear seal on the tranny while in there), or just wait it out. It seems to me eventually the oil in the swing arm will bottom out. I may be able to hasten the process by periodically cleaning out the rubber boot.

I do want to say that I like my dealership, they do their best, they're friendly... It is a bit of a confidence bust to have to tell them how to fix things; but to be sure, I don't have the skills or tools to execute the fix, I'm just good at visualizing what needs to be done. I'm somewhat shocked at the expense, but then I have a BMW---what was I thinking? (this is the reason I've been doing everything else myself, hey?)

So what does the collective knowledge of the R1150R.net group think? Is the whole thing plausible (leak is now sourced from the swing arm)? Should I spring for the extra $$$ to clean the swing arm? Or should I just engage in a period of watchful waiting to see how it turns out? Am I a victim of wishful thinking?

Thanks,

The paralever (or swing arm) is just a dry housing. You could try clipping the zip tie that holds the rubber dust boot in place and use a mild solvent sprayed up in there to clean the excess oil out. Be careful in your choice of solvents so as to not damage any painted surfaces. Then replace the cut zip tie with new. The ties are readily available. You don't have to go back to your dealer for that.

I think I would give that a shot before paying for more shop time.

Wayne

That's what's gradually dawning on me (paralever (or swing arm) is just a dry housing.), and I think the mechanic alluded to this when he described spraying carb cleaner (or was it brake cleaner?) in the vicinity to try and flush spilled lubs away. This is the part (swing arm) he wants to remove and clean. So, this being the source of the current fluid "leaking" is plausible, perhaps more? Sounds like one of those, "it's not a bug, it's a feature"-explanations?

My power of positive thinking wants to think all this is true. Ahhhh...

Brake cleaner....please, but I would watch first and clean later.

I disagree with your review of the dealer.....no offense meant.....as the dealership should have the facilities, tools, expertise and training to warrant their charges.......In my chosen line I fight that all the time.....you pay a shop premium money and you have to be there showing them how to do it....on the equipment they sell !!!!!

Crazy

Dave,
If you like the dealer, I think I would call and using a friendly but stern tone, tell them you have decided to wait for a while and see if the excess oil stops leaking after a while...That you are confident you can check the levels to see if there is any REAL leak anywhere, and that you intend to clean any excess out of the boot to hasten the check of excess oil coming out of the swing arm, BUT, if the leak does not stop, you are bringing it back in for the job to be done right at their expense. You paid $400 bucks the first time and they forgot to clean out excess oil in the swingarm. That's their problem, and you should not have to pay them to do a job twice.

Al is right. These guys charge premium rates for a premium job. Why should we settle for some shade-tree half-ass effort?

In addition to the comments above, I would caution against a "fire hose" washing of the inside of the swing arm: the U-joints in there could suffer from being sprayed, especially with brake cleaner or other aggressive solvents.

Why not just look up inside. If there is oil inside the swingarm, you could have a leaky transmission seal.

Thanks for all the input guys. Sounds like the mechanic's explanation (FD oil trapped in the swing are is source of drips) is at least plausible. I can hasten its removal by wiping out the boot, and reachable areas up in the swing arm. I probably won't use anything other than a rag. I will monitor both the FD and tranny for dropping levels over time. And I won't spend any more $$$ there for a while.

Boxermania---you are right, I'm cutting them too much of a break. As I said, I like all the people (owner, parts guy, service manager, mechanic, other help), which is rare for me when it comes to "stealerships". My experience with car dealerships, mostly as a former mechanic (many MANY years ago) and to some extent as a car owner (tho I tend to buy vehicles that are well off warranty), leads me to expect unskilled diagnosis, shoddy workmanship, and exorbitant prices. I guess when you start with that expectation you've already lost the game.

I really need to find a local independent motorcycle shop… Been looking for a while and sadly, not been successful.

Meanwhile, you guys are my collective brain trust. And for most stuff I'll keep on doing it myself. Now that I've seen inside my first FD, and read over the service manual's terse instructions a few dozen times, I might be willing to take this FD disassembly stuff on next time, I don't know. It ain't rocket science. But it sure can seem scary going places you've never been. Nice to have someone knowledgeable there to hold your hand. Thanks again.

duckdave

Don't panic......you have the first part covered, the oil levels, tranny and rear end. Oil has a tendency to find it's way out in time, unless you see drops on the floor there is little to worry about.

So go out and enjoy life..........

So here's how everything turned out...
First, a quote from the situation at the beginning of the month:

So here's where I am: I actually believe the dealership mechanic is right---that leaking oil from the FD leak migrated up into the swing arm, and the oil I'm currently seeing is coming from there. Both the FD and Tranny oil levels seem to be holding constant, so it doesn't appear the oil is coming from these sources. The caveat here is that a little bit of oil can seem like a lot when spread around the rear wheel, tires, exhaust, fenders etc. I probably need to watch levels a little longer to be sure something important is not leaking. I'm at a decision point of whether I should spend more $$$ to get the swing arm cleaned out (they would replace the rear seal on the tranny while in there), or just wait it out. It seems to me eventually the oil in the swing arm will bottom out. I may be able to hasten the process by periodically cleaning out the rubber boot.

And now the update.

Well, the mechanic's speculation about the source of the still-leaking oil was probably correct. The original leak seems to have caused oil to migrate up into the swing arm. After the leak at the FD was fixed, the rubber boot continued to weep oil, but this was now coming from the swing arm. I decided to take the "wait and see" approach rather than spend more $$$. Over time the oil leak slowed, and now seems to have stopped. Hopefully, I can give the bike a good scrub down this weekend so we can get a better look at progress there. Neither the FD or the Tranny seem to be loosing fluids as judged by levels dropping over time.

Good to go!

Dave,

I just now found this thread, so I've come to the party just in time to help clean up. My '04 R1150R started to show a very slight amount of oil stain around the bottom of the final drive. The service manager at Capitol BMW told me that BMW frequently overfills the final drives at the factory. He checked the fluid level and drained 30cc of excess fluid. He also wiped the oil off the FD and asked me to watch it. (No charge, still in warranty) The very minor stain reappeared. When I took it back, he wiped some residual fluid from the inside of the boot and said to keep an eye on it. The stain never appeared again. One important data point is that this all occurred during a period of very hot weather. Does it get hot in Arkansas in August?

See you in Ozark!

mac

Great news, Mac (about you coming to Ozark for the "multi-named" Bash).

A couple of comments about my FD. I was aware that "they all do that", and of the strategy of just "keep an eye on it". I had been doing that for over a year, and the leak was getting progressively worse to the point that I always smelled burning oil, and it was starting to leave spots (like some other brands, i.e. SOB). When the shop tore down the FD they found the "compression ring", which forms the seal with the rubber part on the front of the FD, was very corroded. It basically looked like it had been soaking in salt water for the past two years. It was evident this was the cause of the leak, and it had to be fixed to repair the leak. After some discussion, I steered the dealership toward replacing the $12 compression ring, rather than some way more expensive parts. Still, they made up for it a little with 4 hr labor at $72.50/hr.

I plan to continue changing my FD oil along with the engine oil changes. Currently re-evaluating what gear oil to use in FD. Was using Moble 1 synthetic 75W90. Dealership put "dino" oil in there.

Just glad to be NOT flinging oil everywhere still.

I just remembered a final drive leak I had back 3 years ago on an '03. Had my dealer replace a leaking seal (under warranty) in the FD. I thought all was well and picked up the bike. Rode it home (about 90 miles). When I got off the bike I looked at the rear hub and found oil pouring out of the vent on top of the FD housing. My rear wheel and tire were covered. Checked oil level in the FD and found it slightly low. Topped it off and cleaned it all up and went for a short ride. No leak out of the vent. Took it for a long ride------oil running out of the vent when I stopped.

Long story short----there is a small sponge-like filter material under the black vent cap. I removed it with tweezers and washed it out with solvent. Apparently when the rear hub was removed for whatever service they did oil seeped onto and in the small filter sponge effectively sealing the vent. As the final drive heated up there was no way the heat and resulting pressure could easily go out the vent as it normally would, so it just pushed more oil out the vent which just made the problem that much worse. Just a big circle. I removed and cleaned the filter element and re-inserted. Cleaned everything up and refilled the final drive. Rode the hell out of it for another 20.000 miles before totaling the bike in an accident last year. Never another leak. Don't know if a partially clogged vent filter element (I call it that-don't know if BMW does) could possibly cause oil seepage from other seals but doesn't sound like too much of a stretch to me. The cap just pulls off (held in place with a small o-ring) and a pair of tweezers will pull the element out. Might be worth a 2 minute cleaning.

Wayne

"The mechanic speculated that the earlier leak had weeped up into the swing arm and regretted NOT removing the swing arm and flushing it out while he had things apart. He suggested, due to my concern, that I put the bike back in the shop to have this done, about 2 hr labor he says."

If the mechanic had missed something like this I would of expected them to sort it out at there cost?

Towerworker,
When I first started having the problem last year, I found out about the vent problem on the web and explored it. My vent seems to be missing the "sponge". I gently poked around in there and seemed to come in contact with something that "gave". I hoped I'd "unclogged" a vent. Briefly, the bike "seemed" to leak less, but I've since come to view this as "wishful thinking". In any case, mine's missing the sponge (I suppose it wouldn't hurt to dig about in there some more just in case), and I don't think that was the problem. The corroded compression washer said it all. I'll bring it with me to the Fall Bash, if I can remember. At the time I decided to get it worked on, she was leaking 2 oz (it holds about 8 oz total) per 300 miles (~two tankfuls). I'm on my third tank now, and I don't think it has leaked a cc (tho it did drip for about half that time seemingly due to the overflow in the swing arm). Your comments are greatly appreciated, thanks.

Harrisphil,
When I brought the bike back to the shop, I had just dropped a little over half a grand into it. I was suffering with sticker shock, and wasn't really sure I trusted the shop, so I was reluctant to start a discussion with them regarding whether they would, or would not, conduct the additional work with, or without, additional charges. The upshot of it is that I didn't talk to them about the additional work, I didn't have it done, and everything now seems OK---just like they said. My RR slung oil an additional week or two, but seems to have quit. I plan to clean 'er up this weekend and see how it looks then. I might poke around a bit in the vent, as suggested by Tower...

I went by the dealership today, had (as usual) a good visit with everyone (James, Sr., owner and Lynn, his wife; Anthony, parts); the service manager (Dale Craig---either name works) came out and asked how the bike was doing; and Lynn gave me 3 knit T-shirts and a ball cap to use in the raffle for the Fall Roadster Ride in Ozark AR October 9-12. You know… I really like these folks.

Wipe the area clean with some wd 40. Get on the bike stop fretting about the drive put 1000 miles or so on it then check to see if all your fluids or still where they are supposed to be. Chances are they will be these bikes are meant to be ridden not worried about................tkm

Yeah, now that it's not leaking 2 oz (out of 8 oz it holds) every 300 miles, I've stopped fretting and started riding more comfortably. Helps I'm no longer slinging oil onto my muffler and tire---that really helps calm the fretting. Checked it Sunday, after riding it (hard) for about 1000 miles over the weekend---right where I left it.

Did my 24K maintenance routine just before leaving for the BMWMOA rally. My FD is holding fluid just fine now. I've been continuing to use dino oil there (currently using Bel-Ray Hypoid Gear Oil, 80W90) and changing FD fluid with every oil change (3K interval) since the replacement of the FD compression ring at about 16K. This oil is red, I'm continuing to use Mobil 1 75W90 Synthetic in the tranny---so it will be clear what's leaking, if anything. No leaks to date.

Great informational thread concerning final drives. Thanks.

Reminds me that we R1150 riders are not the only ones with an "Achilles heel":



See also: http://www.bmwfinaldrive.com/

I skimmed that list...I noticed only 1 R1150R...which I think belongs to our very own NORRMAD.