Final Drive

[red baron]

Has anybody had problems with his final drive on a R1200R? My 2008 with about 15,000 miles had a failure this past weekend with very little warning. By the time I stopped the rear wheel and tire was covered with oil. Apparently the bearing gave in and damaged the main seal therefore all the oil poured over wheel/tire.
Red Baron

[ka5ysy]

Did you ever get the fluid changed in the FD per the new maintenance schedule?

[red baron]

Don't know but he bike was and is serviced by an authorized BMW dealer only. So I asume they did if it was required.

[deilenberger]

Don't know but he bike was and is serviced by an authorized BMW dealer only. So I asume they did if it was required.

The bike is new to you?

You might ask for the service records from the dealer. The oil should have been changed at the 600 mile service, and then again at the 12,000 mile service (if this was within the past year or so..) Most failures of rear drives seem to have occurred on bikes that hadn't received the 600 mile change.. (before 2007 this wasn't a required part of the 600 mile service - the oil was still "lifetime"..)

[red baron]

Anyway will check about the two services 600 and 12,000 miles. 12,000 miles service was done about a month ago.

[red baron]

The oil was changed at 600, 6,600 and at the recent 12,000 miles service. But it was pointed out to me that in my case the bearing collapsed and therefore had nothing to do with the oil. The bearing has its onw lubrication (grease) system. The damaged bearing parts damaged the seal and therefore oil poured out. Since the wheel started to whobble the break calibers were damaged and also have to be replaced.
Peter

[Lost Rider]

So this is actually a rear wheel bearing failure, not a FD failure it seems.
50,000+ miles on mine, no problems.
Is BMW warrantying it?
I've been told bearing ARE NOT covered by any BMW warranty. I have argued with multiple dealer till I'm blue in the face about the rear wheel AND steering head bearing failure on my F800 Gotta Suck.

[deilenberger]

So this is actually a rear wheel bearing failure, not a FD failure it seems.

Not quite since the rear-wheel-bearing is an integral part of the FD.. I'd catagorize it as a FD failure (and rather upsetting to hear of one with such low miles.) The main (big-wheel-side) bearing is a sealed bearing, with it's own grease in it. It shouldn't matter to it if the oil was changed or not (the outside needle bearing does ride in the rear-drive oil.)

50,000+ miles on mine, no problems.
Is BMW warrantying it?

I can't imagine they wouldn't. The policy as stated by the head of BMW-Motorad-USA was (Q&A session with him at the BMW-RA Rally in WV) - "Have you heard of ANYONE paying for a rear drive?" - apparently they are covering failures of the EVO drive well beyond warranty (and this one is well within the warranty - there should be no question.)

I've been told bearing ARE NOT covered by any BMW warranty. I have argued with multiple dealer till I'm blue in the face about the rear wheel AND steering head bearing failure on my F800 Gotta Suck.

Different designs entirely. On a chain/belt drive - the wheel itself has wheel bearings in it. On a final-drive design - the "wheel bearing" is part of the final drive. Ditto on standard forks vs telelever front end. The steering head bearings on your F800 supports the front end of the bike. The one on a telelever designed bike only keeps the handlebars in position - it doesn't support any of the bikes weight (the balljoint on the actual telelever does that - and it's much stronger than a wheel bearing design.)

[red baron]

There is a webside: http://www.bmwfinaldrive.com which shows a list (with owners name, mileage, vin number etc) of about 260 failures and I believe most of these failures originated with the bearing disintergrating and therefore damaging the seal and loss of oil. It is covered by the warranty and I heard that BMW covers such failures for 5 years if the bike was sold after January 1, 2007.

[Lost Rider]

Informative and I'm sure accurate as always Don, but to dumb this down.... A bearing is a bearing regardless of where it's used and I'm just trying to figure out how BMW can have such contradictory warranty coverage.

"BMW considers bearing to be a wear item and therefore will not cover any bearing failure"

I'm glad Red's FD/bearing is being covered as it should....
I am so fed up with BMW's BS with the MANY problems I've had with my GS, including a major rear bearing failure, it gets my blood pressure elevated when I hear of what I see to be the same thing fail yet be covered by BMW.

I know, different bike different design..... but same company, both bikes under warranty with a rear end bearing failure that caused other damage ( and luckily no injury) , only mine wasn't covered....
It pisses me off enough that I will go on the record saying I will NEVER buy another BMW and will do everything in my control to not give them my business, non-BMW replacement parts, fluids, etc... Hell I'm so disgusted with my GS and the service I've received from BMW as a whole, I pried the BMW roundels right off the damn thing.
My solution to being stuck with (upside down financing) my GS, and not really wanting it anymore was to buy a Hyperpro lowering spring kit and low seat. I gave it to my girlfriend, and I have to say that it makes a perfect chick bike!
The way I figure is she'll always be with me and my trustworthy R1200R so the next time it breaks down she won't be stranded....

[hjsbmw]

There is a webside: http://www.bmwfinaldrive.com ...

Informative but also disturbing. Not so much of a confidence builder. It confirms the old adage "the more it has, the more can break".

Never had a BMW before, but never had a serious problem with Japanese brands. It's not that nothing happens there, but reading other forums I see mainly reports about batteries, chains, and fork seals.

Could of course also be the fact that higher mileages are more common among the BMW crowd. However, bearings may be wear parts, but if this happens at 10k-20k miles then I have a hard time seeing it as 'normal wear'.

[deilenberger]

Informative and I'm sure accurate as always Don, but to dumb this down.... A bearing is a bearing regardless of where it's used and I'm just trying to figure out how BMW can have such contradictory warranty coverage.

"BMW considers bearing to be a wear item and therefore will not cover any bearing failure"

Who told you this? (Reason I'm asking is below..)

I'm glad Red's FD/bearing is being covered as it should....
I am so fed up with BMW's BS with the MANY problems I've had with my GS, including a major rear bearing failure, it gets my blood pressure elevated when I hear of what I see to be the same thing fail yet be covered by BMW.

I know, different bike different design..... but same company, both bikes under warranty with a rear end bearing failure that caused other damage ( and luckily no injury) , only mine wasn't covered....
It pisses me off enough that I will go on the record saying I will NEVER buy another BMW and will do everything in my control to not give them my business, non-BMW replacement parts, fluids, etc... Hell I'm so disgusted with my GS and the service I've received from BMW as a whole, I pried the BMW roundels right off the damn thing.
My solution to being stuck with (upside down financing) my GS, and not really wanting it anymore was to buy a Hyperpro lowering spring kit and low seat. I gave it to my girlfriend, and I have to say that it makes a perfect chick bike!
The way I figure is she'll always be with me and my trustworthy R1200R so the next time it breaks down she won't be stranded....

IF the source of the quoted text above was the dealer - to me this means the dealer in question didn't want to warranty the item - for whatever reason (and there can be reasons, not good ones.. but reasons..)

BMWs actual warranty coverage policy is - if the dealer thinks it should be warrantied - BMW doesn't argue with them. (That's the concise short version..) And if the dealer doesn't want it to be warrantied, BMW will back them up on that decision.

The source of this policy is Paul Glaves, who discussed at length the warranty decision making process with the head of BMW-Motorad's warranty department. Paul is a pretty savvy guy, and I don't think the guy he was talking to was blowing smoke up his butt. In cases where the dealer is unsure, or feels BMW may question their decision, they can ask BMW for a decision, but the basic yes/no decisions are done at the dealer level.

So - why would you get a denial? Well - if the dealer isn't one you're familiar with, or have done business with, they have no vested interest in keeping you happy, you're not a profit making customer to them. Dealers can get questioned for being overly generous on warranty claims, or for being (and this is more interesting) too stingy(sp?) and not submitting enough claims. BMW has the numbers on what claim frequency is "normal" - and if a dealer deviates significantly from that - they start paying attention. It's possible a dealer has been notified they were too generous with warranty coverage, and they wrongly start denying valid claims.

It's not a perfect system for sure, but it does explain the variance you can find dealer to dealer. It isn't necessarily BMW who is denying the coverage. I have known of cases where a well worded printed/snail-mailed letter to the BMW-Motorad warranty department (which is probably one person..) has changed one of these denials, and cases where with enough Interwebz exposure, BMW has changed their minds. There was an instance over on the hexhead forum on the MOA forums where a chap was denied coverage on his brake rotors - and the BMW-Motorad rep suggested very clearly that he might benefit by seeing another dealer. Somehow this chap was too stubborn or dense (or both) to understand what BMW was telling him, and refused to - at the same time as he expounded loudly and repeatedly about never buying another BMW (which means BMW-Motorad has nothing to gain by making him happy.. he isn't a potential customer and he is going to badmouth them until the day he dies..)

Just a thought. It's satisfying to blow off steam - but it doesn't always work to your benefit. Honey/flies/vinegar sort of thing. When one path is blocked, sometimes taking a different route will get you where you want to go (and that for sure is something you'd know.. )

Just a FWIW - I'd be interested in the scenerio where you tried getting the bearings covered. Knowing how you travel, if it wasn't at the selling dealer - that might explain your getting a denial of coverage.

Best,

[deilenberger]

There is a webside: http://www.bmwfinaldrive.com ...

Informative but also disturbing. Not so much of a confidence builder. It confirms the old adage "the more it has, the more can break".

Never had a BMW before, but never had a serious problem with Japanese brands. It's not that nothing happens there, but reading other forums I see mainly reports about batteries, chains, and fork seals.

Could of course also be the fact that higher mileages are more common among the BMW crowd. However, bearings may be wear parts, but if this happens at 10k-20k miles then I have a hard time seeing it as 'normal wear'.

It's informative - but how many hexhead bikes have been sold, and how many rear drives actually have failed? BMWs number is "significantly less than 1%" (from the head dude of BMW-Motorad-USA during the Q&A session at the BMW-RA Rally this past summer.) This is actually the first one I can recall hearing on an R1200R - and between the bunch of us - I expect we have a LOT of R1200R's here, and a whole lot of miles on them. If ChiTown (Joe Finn) can't destroy a rear drive.. things are pretty damn tough.

[Lost Rider]

Just a thought. It's satisfying to blow off steam - but it doesn't always work to your benefit. Honey/flies/vinegar sort of thing. When one path is blocked, sometimes taking a different route will get you where you want to go (and that for sure is something you'd know.. )

Just a FWIW - I'd be interested in the scenerio where you tried getting the bearings covered. Knowing how you travel, if it wasn't at the selling dealer - that might explain your getting a denial of coverage.

Best,

Sorry to jack the thread... we're all kind of loose here anyways...

The rear bearings failed at home at 12,000 miles, the SM @ Chicago BMW told me that bit I quoted, along with telling me he has NEVER warrantied bearings on a BMW.
After 2 screwed up parts orders, 3 weeks later I finally had all the parts needed. ( I opted to replace all the bearings and spacers instead of just the failed ones).
I took the rear wheel in to Chicago BMW, they changed out all the bearings and spacers.
Two days later I left for Alaska.
I made it to Minneapolis where I had the rear tire changed, while I was taking off the wheel I noticed a major problem...
Turns out Chicago BMW installed THE WRONG bearing with a much larger inner diameter. My cush drive was now damaged from flopping around on the wrong bearing.
I was @ Leo's South BMW ( great people) and when we called Chicago BMW, they denied installing the wrong bearing. "Are techs are the best, we don't make mistakes like that, it's your fault, etc, etc. All the while with a poo attitude towards me - while I'm far from home broken down from the work they did.
Leo's south took all the parts I needed off of their only show room GS and sent me on my way - after I paid for parts and labor AGAIN.
When I arrived home from Alaska I called BMW NA to complain about what happened to me at Chicago BMW with the failed then wrong bearings (and the 2 major oil leaks, failed gas sensor, brake line recall, front axle recall, stalling while riding in rain, transmission issues, broken chain at 150 miles, overheating, dieing after idling for 3 minutes, etc.)
While I did hear the typical BS apologies, all of the items were considered "warranty" except the bearings, something to be taken up with a dealer, said BMW NA.

Gina's BMW and A&S Cycle ( where I bought it) told me the same thing about my failed steering head bearings.
Not Covered.

As for what Chicago BMW did, BMWNA opened an "investigation" where they talked to Chicago BMW and Leo's South. After 2 weeks of "investigating" they called me back to tell me that Chicago BMW denies ever working on my rear end, and if I couldn't produce proof ( A receipt specifically stating what work was performed) it was my words against theirs. Leo's South did tell BMW NA that their was the wrong bearing in my bike, and I documented it well with photo's the whole way.
All I have is a handwritten receipt saying "2 hours labor" so I'm now out $1000 + plus a lot of stress and wasted miles ridden while pissed off.
So not only are Chicago BMW's tech's incompetent and the service manager a liar, their SM would rather lose a life long customer than just fess up to a mistake. Fine, they are just douchebags with terrible service, slow parts, and an embarrassing little poo shop. Now I understand why they sell things for 20% off - why would anyone want to deal with them were it not for a large discount....

I was always polite and very detailed with BMWNA, I even played the internet card, directing them to my 160,000+ hit ride report on ADV and my 200,000+ photo views I have every month on smugmug.
Seems BMWNA didn't care that I'm on the front line selling their bikes.
They picked the wrong guy.

I've been a free source of marketing for BMW since I started to wander off the beaten path on my R a few years ago, and after all the wasted energy on my very unreliable GS, many bad dealer experiences, and BMWNA's inability or will to help me, I'm done.
The beautiful thing about capitalism is I have a choice, and there's plenty of other brands who make nice bikes who's dealers haven't screwed me yet...
I haven't talked about or posted a photo of my GS in months... no more free GS marketing from me
Now given the chance I'll tell all that will listen about what a horrible dealer Chicago BMW is.

I do love my 12R, it's been bulletproof, and I can work on most things myself... and get aftermarket replacement common wear parts so she will stay with me for a long time, the GS will stay as long as my girlfriend likes riding it and it actually keeps running... then good riddance - it's overrated anyways.
There's a Honda XR, Ducati, KTM, and maybe even a Ural in my future, not any BMW...

YYMV!

[Mollygrubber]

Cripes Joe, tell us what you really think...

I'd bet BMWNA has NO idea how much weight your word carries in the 'circle'.

You should have said "Don't you know who I am ?!?"

Well thanks to you, I'll be documenting very carefully the life of my S.O.'s F650GS. I assume that it will suffer similar woes, albeit at a much expanded timeframe.

I'm glad you still like your RR...

[Lost Rider]

Cripes Joe, tell us what you really think...

I'd bet BMWNA has NO idea how much weight your word carries in the 'circle'.

You should have said "Don't you know who I am ?!?"

Well thanks to you, I'll be documenting very carefully the life of my S.O.'s F650GS. I assume that it will suffer similar woes, albeit at a much expanded timeframe.

I'm glad you still like your RR...

I don't know how good my word is, but my photo's say it all....

Leak #1




leak # 2




chain # 1



chain #2




The wrong bearing Chicago BMW installed...


Fixing the oil leak in the woods in the Yukon @ 1AM...






I have more photo's of problems of my GS than I have time right now...

[dirty red]

Hey folks ,I have not posted for quite sometime. Have been a member since early 2007after getting my R1200R. I have been riding for over 35 years now, the last 20 on 6 different BMW models. I have always felt good about the fact that if you do your part of the routine maintenance on these machines they will see you home.
But somewhere along the way BMW dropped the ball and have not got their hands back on it yet. I have not had any major issues yet but can't help be somewhat concerned when traveling far from home. Over 20 years ago I switched to BMW from other brands because I saw the others as disposable bikes. Ride alot and sell after 2 years, repeat as needed. If BMW keeps it up I will have to go to another brand.
For me it is not so much the cost, I don't mind paying for a quality product. I think BMW has let this whole maintenance/reliability /owner trust thing get so out of hand they won't get it back. That pistol they use to keep in the drawer and only take out occasionally to shoot their self in the toe with is now fully loaded and in their mouth. I very much get the feeling BMW would not mind closing up shop in the United States.

Dereck

[ka5ysy]

Hey Joe (Chitown):

It occurs to me that your RR is jealous of the GS and at night when things are quiet and the GS is asleep, the RR does unmentionable things to the it causing grief when its awake.

[hjsbmw]

I very much get the feeling BMW would not mind closing up shop in the United States.Dereck

As a first time BMW owner I cannot say much about any change in quality. However, if there are problems then I don't think BMW specifically puts "problem bikes" on the US market, and neither do I think they are no longer interested in staying and selling here. Similar discussions about decaying quality and rising problems can be found at least in German forums and print media, and I would assume it is more global than that.

[Mollygrubber]

Mercedes went through a similar flat spot in QC a few years ago, they learned quickly to dig their way out of that hole.