Advice for downhill turns

[hotzuk]

Hey gang,

Just came back from a 1800 mile four day trek through West Virginia. I am still getting all my notes together to post for everyone outlining the roads that we travelled.

In coming down the mountains, the roads are quite twisty and steep. Most were 8-9% grades. I struggled on some sections trying to get down the mountain smoothly. I was trying to lay off the throttle and use engine braking to get me to the curve entry points where I would then use a little maintenance throttle to cruise through nice and smooth on the gas. Easier said than done. I am a good rider but this is something that I will need to work on. Any advice is appreciated.

[DJ Downunder]

I'm no expert...but I think it's about experience and confidence....try looking more up the road as you enter the corner...a little rear brake can help also...your line and corner entering speed is critical...oh yeah..one more thing from me...sliding my arse off the seat a little helps heaps.

DJ

[darthrider]

Watch a road racer as he goes around a corner...he's always looking where he's going, as far up the track as he can. Sometimes they are pretty much looking over their shoulder on a hairpin.
That is an extreme example but it is effective. And keep your eyes parallel with the horizon...or in the mountains where it would be if you *had* a horizon.

This is a dirt bike turn technique I use a lot on my Super Motard...for a right turn, *push" the handlebars towards the ground while keeping your body vertical. This is NOT countersteering. It is physically just pushing the bars straight towards the ground and is just as controllable as any other method of turning a bike. This might help if seeing around the corner is a problem...my old, broken, stiff neck doesn't swivel like it used to!
The downside of this is it has the exact opposite effect of "hanging off" in a corner - it makes the bike lean over farther and uses up cornering clearance. This might be a problem at certain speeds and not at others.
It's an interesting & fun technique to play with on flat corners anyway.
And it does work on the 50R's.

[FGanger]

Hotzuk,

I don't think I could add much to what the two above me have posted. In lieu of watching a racer, you could also watch/follow someone you know who corners that way you want to. Please don't overcook it.

Frank

[MIXR]

I'm on those sorts of roads a lot. Slow hairpins and either uphill or downhill.

Best technique is to slow to a suitable speed BEFORE you hit the hairpin. feather the rear brake just like you do in shopping centre carparks and driveways. Feather the front brake if you have to, but avoid hard braking in the middle of the corner.

Also check the surface BEFORE you enter the hairpin, then look through the corner to the exit line and the entry to the next corner. This takes practice, but you soon learn that when you look to where you want to go, that's where you end up going. Seems to smooth out the corner because it all flows without thinking about it.

It's odds on that you will simply 'fall over' if you keep your head down looking at the road directly in front. Also take a wide line. Stay a bit left of centre for RH turns, and vice-versa. It's a different line to track riding.

Try it - It's a skill to be learned and is used by most of our riding schools that teach roadcraft.

[jm1515]

If I'm coming up to a left hander at the top of a hill, I enter it as I would most any other left turn...I start way over to the right side of the road and look as far into the corner as I can see. By then I've established what my entry speed wants to be.
If I can see that the crown of the road takes the right side away into oblivion (the scariest turns for me), I'll not roll on the throttle as much when I exit. I try to get thru the turn smoothly, little acceleration. Then concentrate downhill....
I will try to keep a steady speed on the way down...using the engine break some times.
I look as deep into the turn at the bottom as I can. In the above scenerio, almost by definition it will be a banked right hander. Those are much more fun to accelerate out of....

[darthrider]

Man, I really enjoy threads like this!
I can ride right behind each poster and feel my palms start sweating...

[QSIMDO]

Here's a wealth of riding skill info even if you don't aspire to being a "Sportrider."
One of the best publications on the market for in-depth riding skill articles IMHO and not because it'll make anyone ride like a racer.

http://www.sportrider.com/ride/RSS/

[hotzuk]

Guys,

Thanks for all the great advice. I think that I was cooking it a little too much before I went into the turns. When I checked my entry speed and used a little rear brake I seemed to get through them pretty smooth.

[BobFV1]

hotz -

Watch your entry speed and don't be afraid to use that thing in your right hand to get you to the proper speed before you turn. Watch the entry point so that you have a good line, and get on a line so you can look as far in to the turn as possible (without having to worry about other traffic!) These are all basics, but on a tight downhill, they really count.

If your speed is too hot going in to a turn then you can't use throttle to stabilize your suspension, so you are really hosed. Cornering is a great skill to practice on the track, so if you can, get to a track day. Even after a lot of track days, I still learned a lot about cornering at the California Superbike School - there are many of these types of courses available and they are excellent. The first drill in Level 1 of the Cal Superbike School is fourth gear, no brakes - try going around a race track with no brakes a few times and you will learn a LOT about setting your entry speed!

Good luck and ride safe.

[geechie]

Down here in the Lowcountry, I don't get too much practice with elevation changes, but in most any situation, I think that keeping the suspension settled is a big part of effective cornering. Inputs, be they brake or throttle must be as smooth as possible.

In the last few miles of my ride home, I have two 90 degree turns — a left hander followed about a mile later by a right hander. That part of the road is also pretty rural, so I can wick it up pretty good. I'm a late braker, and I use a lot of front brake. One day last week, I stayed on the brake a bit too far into the left, and came off it (the brakes) rather abruptly. Holy crap! It was like I had slammed on the gas just as I was tipping it in good. Since then, I've been concentrating on easing off the brakes and rolling back on the throttle more smoothly. What a difference.

George

[dallara]

Just a quick note, which I don't think has been mentioned...

Remember, a flat *DOWNHILL* corner is essentially like a normal *OFF CAMBER* (or *NEGATIVELY CAMBERED*) corner... Meaning if it is flat in relation to the downhill grade then it is essentially off-camber, or "banked" away from you, meaning that the tires are at a more severe lean in relation to gravity, and therefore already at a higher slip angle. In a sense, gravity is trying to make you slide off the outside of the corner.

Any off-camber corner is best approached with your bike being leaned over the minimum amount of time possible. Do all your braking straight up and down (trail braking, my favorite, can be often deadly on off-cambers at a quick clip...), do a late turn-in, with a late, late, late apex, when the bike is at its lowest velocity... get it over and turned as qucikly as possible, and then pick up up as quick as you can as you apply throttle.

Essentially you are "exposing" the tires to the minimal amount of slip angle for the shortest possible time.

And also remember, the *BRAKES ARE YOUR FRIEND*, and really the key to going quickly...

Conversely, remember that uphill corners are essentially *POSTIVELY CAMBERED* corners, or like a "banked" corner in the "good" way, and you can wail them for all their worth, trail-braking like a bandit, carrying all sorts of apex speed, and really whacking the throttle for all it's worth... because gravity is "helping" you all the way!

Hope this helps!

Cheers!

Dallara

[wncbmw]

Lots of good advise from people better than I. My simple rules for cornering in the mountains is exaggerated for downhills. It's a lot easier (and a lower "pucker" factor) to have your entry speed correct before you get into the turn! Add to that the fact that on many of my favorite mountain roads, the exit of the curve is a mystery until you are leaned over and committed. I like to keep my speed down until I see the way is clear from gravel, tourists or Harley riders coming the other way across the center line before I goose it coming out.

[Acacia]

Some of those WV roads are fun are they not?

Problem with many of the rural hairpins there is that you cant look ahead much as they are too sharp, double back on you or the road goes around the mountain side, AND there is often gravel somewhere.

I found using the rear brake into the corner more than normal worked for me. Inside corners positive cambered, outside often flat or negative. A challenge.

Tourists and Harley riders? - I kept thinking of the movie Deliverance after one 'holler' we passed on that trip!

[hotzuk]

Acacia,

You could not have said it better. Some of those roads were so blind it wasn't funny. I really appreciate the great advice from you as well as the gang. My birthday gift for next year is track school. I think I will be able to overcome this issue with practice and some good teachings.

[wncbmw]

Tourists and Harley riders?

Here in WNC we get more than our share of both involved in wrecks in the mountains. Which is why threads like this are good and maybe will keep someone from being one of the statistics.

[Acacia]

October last year we had a 50R rider go down in WV too - a combination of riding inexperience, lack of knowledge/confidence in the handling capabilities of his bike and inattention to the detail of the road conditions. A case of he saw it coming and 'froze' at the exact time he should have been taking what eventually should be almost automatic action.

There is no substitute for time in the saddle and experience - with a sprinkle of good advice.

[MIXR]

hotzuk - You've started an interesting thread. Thoroughly recommend track school if you've got the time and money. Just take some of the advice given by 'experts' with a bit of caution. Track skills are different to road skills. Similar, but also different.

I've got mates who do lots of track days who cannot stay with me on the mountain roads. Likewise, I may as well stay in the pits when it comes to track riding. I just cannot keep the same pace and seem to take the wide road lines that work in the hills. It's frustrating for both sides of the coin, but merely proves that the skills are a little different for each environment.

Temper your learning and the advice given by everyone (including me) with a bit of self assessment. Some things will work better than others FOR YOU. That's what's important - figuring out which bits work best.

Very valid points on unsighted exit lines, and I have plenty of roads I ride with that problem. That's one of the reasons we are taught to use wider lines than on a track. I think that's also the problem that track riders experience in the hills - They don't have the confidence to push the limits using 'track' lines and are therefore slower.

There are a hundred answers and variations to this theme. The most important one is to expect the unexpected. I saw the results of a six bike pile up with riders running to fast in the tight stuff, one mistake bringing all six down and scaring the crap out of several others. Too hot and too close together! Bad decisions by all six riders and two paid the penalty big time.

For the Aussies, it was the Putty road earlier this year.

[wncbmw]

I think that's also the problem that track riders experience in the hills - They don't have the confidence to push the limits using 'track' lines and are therefore slower.

Interesting and that should be true for everyone. Unfortunately, I know some riders who do not change their lines in the street too much. They can leave me and I don't care!