Starting question

Post by **challey** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:45 pm

My '03 R with about 19,300 on the clock has become a bit difficult to start when the engine is cold and when the ambient temps are relatively high.

I noticed last summer that she became harder to start than was the case during the cold months - I chalked this up to the warm weather formulation for fuel. Now, she cranks longer than ever (4-5 secs) before catching and for the first few seconds (less than 5 secs), runs roughly until finally getting up to the fast idle speed. No problems after that and she runs nicely on the road. Starting when warmed up is almost instantaneous.

This latest round of hard(er) starting came immediately after I did a quick valve clearance adjustment - only the right-hand cylinder needed adjusting and it was not out much. Not suggesting any relationship, just mentioning it. I didn't do a TB sync but plan to in the next couple of days - that should have any effect on starting though.

Any thoughts on the cause? I know I'll need to get a new fuel filter in place soon but if the filter was getting clogged, wouldn't the engine bog down at speed as it got starved for fuel?

Charlie

Post by **bransan** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 6:06 pm

Dirty injectors. Techron injector cleaner is what You want. Use it as per directions and then if it still does it You can rule out the injectors being dirty.

Post by **DJ Downunder** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 6:10 pm

I'm no expert but I'd be checking the plugs.

DJ

Sit · Post by **Sit** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:54 pm

How old is your battery? My bike was slow to start when the battery started to crap out on me. Once I got a new battery bike fired right away (of course) . Then started getting longer to crank and start until I got my 18K service and new plugs. Even think about touching the starter button now and the thing jumps to life.

Post by **CycleRob** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 12:22 am

SitR1150R is right. You get used to a slowly dying battery.

If it spins fast on the starter and the plugs are recent, the cause is today's crappy gasoline. The way things are with prices it encourages stockpiling, so it could be really old fuel and no longer fresh. I'm getting similar symptoms like you described on my bike right now. Recently new plugs and new Odessy battery rule out those causes so it has to be the fuel. It doesn't even smell like gasoline anymore. Smells like there's diesel in it.

geothepencil · Post by **geothepencil** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 11:03 am

CycleRob wrote:SitR1150R is right. You get used to a slowly dying battery.

Smells like there's diesel in it.

Could very well have diesel in it. Trucker mistakes in filling the tanks are quite common and a lot of times they realize the mistake after a small amount has been moved into the tank.

geo

Post by **challey** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 12:43 pm

Thanks to all for the replies.

The battery is about 2 years old but the plugs are nearly new. Engine seems to spin over at about the same speed as usual, just doesn't catch as quickly.

An aside: The new plugs are Bosch 4417s from Beemer Boneyard - the engine has run great with them - there seems to be less backfiring and I got the best mileage ever out/back to the Rally with the new plugs. At $12/pair they are a good alternative to the OEMs and Beemer Boneyard is a pleasure to deal with.

Could be someting to the diesel fuel contamination theory: My last tank of gas (after which this problem started!) was not from my usual service station.

Post by **CycleRob** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 4:17 pm

Diesel in it? It's possible but more likely that it's just stale gas (old) - - - - where the volatile aromatic hydrocarbons have long since floated away.

Have you taken a wiff of what today's gasoline smells like? Smells like a combo of Butane, Propane, city gas, smoldering plastic and Diesel(*). It's especially foreign if you're obtaining it in a "Metropolitan Area" where there are considerable "additives".

*=humor

johno · Post by **johno** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 11:37 am

Maybe the gas station had a larger than allowed dose of Ethanol in its fuel.
Some do it to keep profits up.
Seems like you need to avoid that gas station.

Sunbeemer · Post by **Sunbeemer** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 12:13 pm

All our gas in the Tampa Bay area comes in by ship to the Port of Tampa, and all the distributors get it from there, then add their propietary additives to make it brand specific. However, I've noticed my bike running badly immediately after filling up at stations that get little demand for their premium gas, such as in the lower socio-economic areas of town. The gas in those tanks may have sat around for months and todays gasolines, especially the more volatile winter blends, can go bad in weeks. Freshness really makes a difference, and after a tank of stale gas, I usually add ~ 4 oz of Sea-Foam to my next tankful of "good" gas. If you aren't riding much, Stabil gas stabilizer will extend the life of the gas in your tank by several months.

def38 · Post by **def38** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 3:11 pm

Sunbeemer wrote:All our gas in the Tampa Bay area comes in by ship to the Port of Tampa, and all the distributors get it from there, then add their propietary additives to make it brand specific. However, I've noticed my bike running badly immediately after filling up at stations that get little demand for their premium gas, such as in the lower socio-economic areas of town. The gas in those tanks may have sat around for months and todays gasolines, especially the more volatile winter blends, can go bad in weeks. Freshness really makes a difference, and after a tank of stale gas, I usually add ~ 4 oz of Sea-Foam to my next tankful of "good" gas. If you aren't riding much, Stabil gas stabilizer will extend the life of the gas in your tank by several months.

To cure poor starting do the following in the following order;

1- Add Techron to your existing fuel.
2- Change sparkplugs to Autolite 3923s. Gap to 0.035"
3- Fuel only at clean, name brand stations where fuel is turned over frequently. I prefer truck stops. They take care of their equipment.
4- Try to find a station where the pumps have hoses for each fuel grade...they are becomming scarce...think about it, the last fuel delivered from the single hose will empty into your tank (about 1/2 gallon) before you get the grade you selected. You got cheated out of a complete fill with your selected grade. The next person gets 1/2 gallon of your premium grade...not fair!
5- Change engine oil soon after running the Techron. The Techron will leave deposits in the engine oil after cleaning up the mess above.
6- Stay out of those low socio-economic neighborhoods...you know better!

NCPadgett · Post by **NCPadgett** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 5:04 pm

My bike seems to idle rough after start-up, but only in the afternoon when leaving work. I assume its from sitting in the sun all day and "cooking". After about five miles it seems to be back to normal. As for the bad gas thought, I have got some bad gas in mine right now. I bought it from a BP, but each time I start it since fill up, it will cut off immediately and then fire back on the second try. Next time I will stick with Exxon

Be safe.

combustor777 · Post by **combustor777** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 5:46 pm

From the specifics you are describing, it could be vapor lock - and fuel injected engines are especially prone to it. High ambient temps combined with the volatile gas. Go to your local county airport and try a tank of AvGas. It wont vaporize as readily and will stay fresh for months (because airplanes can't gamble on "mystery fuel") Might want to advance your timing as far as it will go for optimum performance if you continue using it.

def38 · Post by **def38** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 5:51 pm

Aviation fuels are not meant for motorcycle engines. The BMW boxer is designed, tuned and set up for the viscosity, specific gravity, additives, emmissions, blends, burn rates and combustion speeds of motor fuels not aviation fuels.

Your engine will not necessarily perform or run better on avgas.

Arbee · Post by **Arbee** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 7:14 am

AVGAS has anti freeze in it, that cant be good for the beemer.
(ethylene glycol)

I dont think the krauts anticipated that one in their design formulas.

def38 · Post by **def38** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 10:45 am

NCPadgett wrote:My bike seems to idle rough after start-up, but only in the afternoon when leaving work. I assume its from sitting in the sun all day and "cooking". After about five miles it seems to be back to normal. As for the bad gas thought, I have got some bad gas in mine right now. I bought it from a BP, but each time I start it since fill up, it will cut off immediately and then fire back on the second try. Next time I will stick with Exxon Be safe.

It is likely that the RVP of the fuel resident in the system has gone down reducing the combustibility of the fuel. After you introduce fresh fuel (from the tank) the driveability problem disappears. Cover your bike in the hot sun with a reflective cover (silver).

combustor777 · Post by **combustor777** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 11:20 am

Arbee wrote:AVGAS has anti freeze in it, that cant be good for the beemer.
(ethylene glycol)

I dont think the krauts anticipated that one in their design formulas.

No, there is no ethylene glycol in AvGas! The only time antifreeze would be in Avgas is when the pilot adds it in his own airplane, anticipating flying from a very hot and humid area into extreme cold, which is a rare circumstance. Avgas naturally has a very low freezing point for suspended water (which is why military jet fuel has gas added to it).
The boxer isn't so highly specialized as some of you think, it runs over 100 different blends of gas sold in the US, so it handles Avgas (which is consistent everywhere) without a fuss. The lead may harm the cat, but why haven't you removed the cat already? Putting Avgas in your bike is like giving it "Fiji" bottled water. Getting it at the service station is like tap water from calcutta - most tastes ok, but some of it is bad.
If you only use BMW oil and get your bike serviced at the stealership for fear that it will explode otherwise, don't try it. I don't mind experimenting to find out what works though.

Post by **CycleRob** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 9:12 pm

One tankful ago I added 1/3 bottle of fuel injection cleaner. The improvement several days later in start-up, cold & hot engine idle was obvious. An unwavering, hit every beat , smooth idle. It even starts quicker and stabilizes right-a-way. After over 56K miles (90,123km) apparently there were deposits that needed removal. You can't rely on gasoline ad campaigns to do the job. Sometimes the injectors need a good dose of strong medicine. In another tank or so of regular fuel, I'll treat the fuel load again.

coyofmo · Post by **coyofmo** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 9:17 pm

Avgas has a higher "vaper point", I think that's the correct term. Essentally, it's refined to the point it will not vaporize as easyly as auto gas.
Diesel fuel mixed with regular gas brings up an old story. I think it's regulation that all planes now have the type of fuel they use clearly marked at the fuel cap or fill point. Years ago,as the story goes, a linemane was told to fuel a plane...he saw the word "Turbo" on the side of the engine and thought "Oh yes...this is a turbine and needs the turbine fuel".....What was really not bright was the pilot who taxed out, ran up the engines and noted "They were a little rough"...per witness accounts, but elected to take off anyway.
Bad things can happen anywhere. Coy

def38 · Post by **def38** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:46 am

combustor777 wrote:
Arbee wrote:AVGAS has anti freeze in it, that cant be good for the beemer.
(ethylene glycol)

I dont think the krauts anticipated that one in their design formulas.
No, there is no ethylene glycol in AvGas! The only time antifreeze would be in Avgas is when the pilot adds it in his own airplane, anticipating flying from a very hot and humid area into extreme cold, which is a rare circumstance. Avgas naturally has a very low freezing point for suspended water (which is why military jet fuel has gas added to it).
The boxer isn't so highly specialized as some of you think, it runs over 100 different blends of gas sold in the US, so it handles Avgas (which is consistent everywhere) without a fuss. The lead may harm the cat, but why haven't you removed the cat already? Putting Avgas in your bike is like giving it "Fiji" bottled water. Getting it at the service station is like tap water from calcutta - most tastes ok, but some of it is bad.
If you only use BMW oil and get your bike serviced at the stealership for fear that it will explode otherwise, don't try it. I don't mind experimenting to find out what works though.

There is tetraethyl lead in Avgas which WILL ruin your CAT and lambda sensor. Also, avgas is dyed differently than motor fuel. If noticed, you're in for a fine. Also, when your local BMW shop removes the spark plugs and notices the deposits, your warranty is kaput! Use the Techron...stay away from Avgas.

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