Clutch Spline Failure Analysis

[CycleRob]

The response from BMW is a form letter where they just inserted "2003 BMW R 1150 R" to fool the writer into thinking it was a written response. Not so. That letter was a completely non-specific B.S. canned response to his inquiry.

I believe BMW knows of the problems but is waiting for "critical mass" to occur. That's the point where the problems are so well known they are hurting sales and will justify the billion dollar repair cost refund -and- goodwill 100,000 mile guarantee covering those costly problematic parts and repairs.
That's what we all would expect from a reputable, prestigious German manufacturer that produces a high end motorcycle with serious, costly (reliability) problems. If the denial continues, the locusts will take care of their future.


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[boxermania]

Sometimes OEM's fail to see/recognize what is in front of their noses......they play dumb/deny to sideswipe product liability. The fact remains that the GS and the entry level R's have been the vehicles that have brought over many riders that would not have considered the mark other than the bikes "reliability".

Of course put some bad taste in the mouths of some owners and that is the worse PR that you can possibly have....if BMW had nipped the issue in the bud....circa 2002 and 2003 they would have made good with the owners and their sales would be booming.

I call them as I see them and have always predicated that the major problem with the German manufacturers is their "Teutonic Arrogance". The bike has too many little issues....well before one gets to the spline and rear failures to be what the OEM wants it to be.

Had one, had fun with it, didn't give me any problems, do all my work, I won't own another......sorry no offense meant.

In closing, do remember that the flock is aging an as such the issues will increase in frequency....fortunately and thanks to this and other like boards there has been a fair amount of preventive maintenance by the owners and the majority of the issues have been short-circuited.

[mkmd555]

R1150R 21002 A newbie to the R1150R NET.

Mine has 62,000 miles, and runs perfectly.

What are the symptomps or signs of failure? I mean, does the bike act differently or feel differently before the failure.

What is the worst that can happen? Will the bike seize suddenly when I am riding on Interstate? which, has happened to many a hapless Henderson-Exelsior riders.

I read somewhere that the spline failure is an exagerrated fear by American riders. Correct me if I am wrong.

To be more scientific, does some one has the real numbers or percetages of failures? Is it the GS or the regular RR?

IMHO, It depends on your driving habits, right?

MK

[boxermania]

Mine has 62,000 miles, and runs perfectly. Good sign that there is no problem with yours, unless it happened to the PO

What are the symptomps or signs of failure? I mean, does the bike act differently or feel differently before the failure. Noise and chatter at idle.....hard to shift....ultimately, no forward motion

What is the worst that can happen? Will the bike seize suddenly when I am riding on Interstate? which, has happened to many a hapless Henderson-Exelsior riders. No seizing.....sudden lack of forward motion on the worst case

I read somewhere that the spline failure is an exagerrated fear by American riders. Correct me if I am wrong. Have no hard numbers, but it is well beyond an exaggeration.....has happened in all continents

To be more scientific, does some one has the real numbers or percetages of failures? Is it the GS or the regular RR? Not many GS's, mostly RT's and RR's

IMHO, It depends on your driving habits, right? Driving habits can be contributory to the failure, but it appears to be a combination of design, material hardness, lubrication and misalignment

[MikeCam]

Al has this one nailed pretty well....

[Just-Beeming]

responding via I touch ,we left rally this am

I stopped by dealer. B 4 we left town.

After talking with other owners at the nat rally they all agreed the splines need maint that does not get performed!
the dealers have the same response...as if they all went to a big seminar on what to say; "we don't ever see
except on the police bikes, cuz they use them so much."

DRB's,, what do they think, that the bikes will expire warrnty before splines shred and then not be responsible? These bikes that they take such pride in proclaiming that the bikes can be ridden to dust!!!

On bright note, my f650 is holding her own and proving to be a whippy little riding friend. I am happy that I had another bike to ride.

Everyone, go out and buy a back up bike!
more when I get home

Just beeming
Every lost riding vacation is one you don't get back!!

Sorry 4 the choppy post I am posting from ten sleeps Wyoming
more to follow

Just beeming



More on this subject when I get home!!


just beeming

[sweatmark]

Got my response from BMW USA:

Thank you for contacting BMW Motorrad USA regarding your R 1150 R's. We appreciate your interest in our brand.

Unfortunately, we at this location are not trained in a technical capacity concerning our motorcycles. We are sorry that we are not able to resolve this issue for you immediately. Please see the service manager at your authorized BMW Retailer who is best equipped to address this concern and offer you technical feedback.

If you have any further questions, please respond to this e-mail or contact the Customer Relations and Services Department at 1-800-831-1117. Our office hours are Monday through Friday from 9:00 A.M. to 9:00 P.M., Eastern Standard Time.

Regards,
Jay Williams
BMW Motorrad USA

Perhaps I'll give the Customer Relations folks a call to discuss, with emphasis on development & avilability of improved transmission input shaft and clutch hub parts, along with revised maintenance procedures for clutch/transmission splines. Wonder how high up in the food chain we must go to get a real answer.

[ColumbiaBMW]

What are the symptomps or signs of failure? I mean, does the bike act differently or feel differently before the failure. Noise and chatter at idle.....hard to shift....ultimately, no forward motion

I had started a previous thread about a noise at idling, a very loud chatter or knocking coming from the transmission, do you guys think it's a symptom or sign of a failure to come with my bike? I don't mean to steal this thread, but I was curious if anyone thinks my noise is common, or something more serious. It's not always there, so maybe it's just one of those things they all do. If not though, if it's something more serious. I would like to sell the bike as soon as possible.

[awagnon]

There is the old business saying that a happy customer tells three others, but an unhappy customer tells ten others. This month's Time magazine had a book review that BMW corporate should read. According to the book, with the internet, now a happy customer tells three others, but an unhappy customer tells 3,000 others. I'm sure lots of potential BMW customers are reading about spline, FD, and other reliability issues and questioning buying a BMW. On my way back from the MOA rally, a guy came up to me at a filling station and said he was planning to buy a BMW since they are reported to be the most reliable bike on the market. I told him to reconsider. BMW needs to read that book and take some action before their reputation as the reliable motorcycle fades.

[sweatmark]

BMW needs to read that book and take some action before their reputation as the reliable motorcycle fades.

Forgot about this tidbit until now:

At our state BMW rally last month, a true adventure biker couple from Germany or Switzerland camped near my tent. I overhead the woman's comments to a BMW rider when she was asked why neither she nor husband rode Beemers (they were on Honda Transalp and Kawasaki KLR, IIRC)... her answer? "Bmws, they break too easy, ja? So we choose better bikes for our journey." Chilling words from someone who selected a machine based on round-the-world reliability.

Oh, my call to BMW Customer Service this morning held nothing of interest. Post-warranty, we're strictly on our own, unless some daring Authorized Dealer carries the spline failure torch - and there's not much in it for them.

Does anyone have connections with the automotive industry? Would love to hear about design criteria for a dry clutch and splined transmission input shaft, as if an engineer approached the problem with a clean sheet of paper and used known (successful) benchmarks to specify number of splines, amount of mating surface on the clutch hub, clutch cushion spring inclusion, etc.

[Greybeard]

I haven't read the entire thread but two aspects of this "problem" occur to me.
Even without having a damaged spline to physically inspect it would seem they weren't heat treated correctly.
Damage that severe from a clutch disc? Hmmm...

However, all splines aren't ALL thusly afflicted, how about some folks coming clean on their riding style?
Cases of abuse?

[boxermania]

Clutch splines have been with us since year one on automotive applications. Properly designed clutch systems do not need any maintenance until the life of the clutch is used up. I've worked on all kinds of cars, british, german, french, american and never ever had a cluitch spline failure that I can remember........

There are people in high places on all walks of life that think that people are ignorant, stupid or idiots and they have a surprise coming.....way too many BMW boxer spline failures to ignore.....there is a problem, they know about it and basically are telling you that I've got your money.....I don't have to accept liability and pay me to repair it.

To which I say......the line to kiss my ring forms to the left....

[frbank6]

On a positive note, I noticed today that my ex-brother-in-law now has 62k on his 2004 R and he's never had a problem. It must be a roll of the dice.

[mad1150]

Is there an unofficial Spline Lube Procedure? I thought I remembered seeing something once with photos, but can't find it.

Also, any recommendations on frequency?

If it's not terribly difficult, at 43K now, it sure wouldn't be a bad thing to at check!

[awagnon]

Is there an unofficial Spline Lube Procedure? I thought I remembered seeing something once with photos, but can't find it.
Also, any recommendations on frequency?
If it's not terribly difficult, at 43K now, it sure wouldn't be a bad thing to at check!

I personally don't believe there is a recommended frequency, because BMW does not recommend the procedure in the first place. The belief that lubricating the splines prevents failure is speculation without data. Some well respected mechanics recommend around 35,000-45,000 miles. Still, no data on it's effectiveness, just a feeling it must help based on anecdotal experience. It's a good winter project. I lubricated mine at 43,000 on my RT, only to find the splines were very close to failure due to wear. Would lubricating them earlier have prevented it? Who knows. The failure is probably due to a design flaw coupled with quality control flaw in production and you either get a bad one or you don't. Just my opinion based on my experience and reading all the posts on this and three other major BMW forums.

[frbank6]

Does anyone know if the other bikes with shafts (Concours, Goldwings, etc.) have this kind of issue? I would think they would if it's a 'they all do that' kind of thing, but not if it's metallugy/design.

[boxermania]

frbank6

This is a BMW specific issue as it deals with a dry clutch and the tranny input shaft design.......the Concours, Goldwing and the like have a wet clutch which an entirely diferent design.

[mad1150]

It's a good winter project. I lubricated mine at 43,000 on my RT, only to find the splines were very close to failure due to wear.

Does someone have a procedure, how hard is it?

[sweatmark]

Watch this space over the winter for DIY spline inspection info. Awagnon has done this and has instructions IIRC, and I'm guessing a few folks will join me in an R1150** dissection and exploratory surgery.

[Greybeard]

just a feeling it must help based on anecdotal experience.

And that's my difficulty with this entire question.

UNTIL such time as formal...FORMAL design and metallurgical analysis is conducted it is all amateur hyperbole and hysterical speculation.

I've no doubt there are failures.
More failures than there should ever be.
But there are too many potentially contributing factors to the results we're seeing.

I want facts.