Clutch spline failures - Let's get serious

[boxermania]

OK, at this juncture it is worthwhile to gather some factual data. To that effect, let's use this thread to tally all the failures that have been had. We need to urge the other forums to come to this centralized location and submit their info, otherwise it would be a logistical nightmare. I will tabulate.

The intent is to gather sufficient data to submit to BMW alongside a letter of complaint to begin with......it's up to you now!!!!

Please provide the year and model, VIN number, mileage when it failed, number of failures, who repaired and your email, in that order.

[slowpoke 04]

Well, I only have 4000 miles on my 04, so I won't be much help with this. But, nothing works without money. How about starting a pay pal account where people like me could help out with some money. It's going to be needed at some point I'm quite sure. Seems like long term, it going to effect more people, maybe me or my heirs. I might as well get in on the one shot you have started.

[awagnon]

Have you seen the same data on the BMW Sport Touring forum. They already had a fairly large collection of failures. Enough to get data on worse year and bike. Of course, being mainly an RT forum, most bikes were RT's.

For your database, my 2002 RT failed at 43,000 miles. I did most of the repair which cost about $950. Has had 10,000 miles since the repair and working OK so far. I'd rather not leave the VIN and my email address in a public forum. I can PM it to you if you need it. I also think we should have a letter writing campaign to the MOA to get them to represent us in getting some data from BMW.

[boxermania]

awagon

Thank you for your submission, yes I'm aware that there are other databases and hopefully can get to tap them. In regards to your information I respect your wishes, do pm me the info as I keep a database to collect the info.

Other members have sent me their info and I have requested their permission to post the portion specific to the failure and keeping the personal info off the post.

Regarding the MOA suggestion, I think it is a good idea, however, I have taken this preliminary step on myself and any additional commitments are beyond my timetable. Would you consider fronting that effort......on an exploratory basis to see if it will also help populate our database.

Al

[riceburner]

If this is the wrong place to ask my question, I apologise - but, what's the end goal??

Are you going to attempt to persuade BMW to pay for a redesigned part? Because that simply won't happen, the R1150 series engines & gearboxes are (I'm sorry to say), a non-current product line, ie obsolete, as far as BMW's corporate accountants are concerned and so they *the accountants) simply won't release funds for a redesign of a part which, whilst not being perfect, is far from being a Pinto fuel tank.

If you're going to aim for persuading BMW to repair those bikes that fail under an extended warranty type of thing, then I think you'll have more luck, but will come up against exactly the same issue as above.

FWIW :
2004 , R1150R Rockster, n/k (not my current bike), approx 40,000 miles , 1, Vines BMW, Guildford, UK, email supplied upon private request (to prevent spam harvesting).

[sweatmark]

I would echo the question about strategy here. After a couple conversations with BMW Customer Support, I cannot imagine the manufacturer taking any steps to address out-of-warranty problems: doing so would set a difficult legal precedent that's not in BMW's best interest. Same goes for the dealer network, where it must be uncomfortable to be stuck between angry customers and an unresponsive manufacturer.

Great to tally up the info for spline failures as they occur, and even better if the data from other groups is rolled into one big database.

Approaching MOA with this info to support a feature story would make the most sense to me. And I wouldn't bet that anything would come of it, even with the widespread publicity, but the effort would be cathartic at least.

We haven't been hit yet with a spline failure in either our '02 Roadster or '04 Rockster, but we see the group's effort to account for and understand the spline failures is seen as critical, mostly as a way to focus efforts towards a "fix that sticks".

[Arbee]

Boxermania

With all due respect i feel that this spline failure thingo is starting to consume you,
its time to move on, sell the bike and test ride all other manufacturer's bikes
one is sure to please you immensely enough to forget all the past troubles.

There is a lot of bikes out there which will put a big smile on your face,
Honda Blackbird, Suzuki Bandit, Yamaha TDM900,

cheers arbee

[FloridaBeakster]

I would echo the question about strategy here. After a couple conversations with BMW Customer Support, I cannot imagine the manufacturer taking any steps to address out-of-warranty problems: doing so would set a difficult legal precedent that's not in BMW's best interest.

Covering a widespread defect out-of-warranty is not a new idea for a vehicle manufacturer. When Toyota experienced a large number of oil-gelling/sludge related problems with several of their engines (which were caused, in part, by the consumer not following manufacturer-prescribed oil changes), many of which were outside of the warranty period, what did they do? That's right, they extended the warranty on the affected vehicles to specifically cover damage as a result of engine oil gelling. Here's a company whose reputation is built on quality that stepped up and did the right thing.

BMW could go a very long way in the consumer's mind and to protect their reputation (I believe) by extending the warranty on the affected bikes to specifically cover transmission input shaft spline and clutch spline wear for something like 10 years or 100,000 miles. Such a thing is certainly not unheard of from a manufacturer.

[frbank6]

Mike,

I completely agree with whay you said about extending the warranty. It's exactly what my employer did when their tractors were failing. And best of all, if BMW is telling the truth, they shouldn't be out ANY money, since there isn't a spline issue and therefore nothing to repair, right?

[Stixx]

Newbee here just tapping into this concern since I have a used as in out of warranty 02 model R 1150 R model which I bought used.

The thing that has me scratching my head is why one would assume this is a current fault of all boxer beemers. /The new film Long way down features to boxer GS models , basically the same drivetrain albeit lower gearing just clammored though hell and high water literall bisecting the entire continent of africa much of which was on horrible terrain and slogging through sand and Lord knows what else. No clutch failure there and heat and sand and grit in every moving part did nothing to the engine or drive train except destroy the rear shocks on both bikes. IF it were a cronic problem throughout the line would not that sort of trial have brought about a failure on at least one of the bikes.?? Inquiring minds want to know.

[jfslater98]

The new film Long way down features to boxer GS models

Didn't see the movie, so I am talking out of complete ignorance here: I doubt that Charlie and Ewan's bikes were just picked up at a local dealer. I would imagine they were trailered from BMW, after a very careful once over at the factory. One can imagine the backlash if one of the 3 Horsemen of the Internet (Final Drive, Clutch Spline, EWS) should rear their heads on major film.

[frbank6]

Stixx,

I see your point, but remember there were several instances requiring repair in the the first series, Long Way Round. In at least one instance they had to weld up a cracked frame. Also, they would have little incentive to highlight the mechanical foibles of the bikes, should they occur. The suits at BMW probably made such stipulations in their agreement to provide the bikes for the trip. I'm certain they have a fully stocked supply of spares and a competent mechanic(s) at arm's reach as well.

You are correct to point out the new models may not have these spline problems. However, that's cold comfort to those of us with the 1150 series. The sheer number of posts on this and other threads, and perhaps more importantly, the number of people reading along with great trepidation, are far from encouraging.

I don't think anyone here is demanding perfection. We just don't expect to be lied to or abandoned after paying a high price for admission.

[Bill Stevenson]

I have ridden as near as recollection allows over 500,000 miles on beemers. R bikes and K bikes. I usually ride them between 25 and 50 thousand miles. Splines get lubed at the 24,000 mile service. Never had a spline failure.

Regards,

Bill

[CycleRob]

Years ago at Pocono Raceway in PA I spoke with one of the pit crew of a stunt show where the air/oil cooled 1200 Suzuki Bandit they were using for burn-outs, stoppies, long wheelies and engine rev crowd salutes (where the throttle is held open while the engine rapidly bounces off the rev limiter for about 3 seconds per salute). The burn-outs start in 2nd gear and up-shift without the clutch by using an added kill button. The final tire blowing, redline burn out creates enough smoke to completely obscure the bike, rider and a large portion of the track. I asked them later on how many bikes they've blown up in a season. He said "It lasts the WHOLE season". That's for a bigger, non performance standard bike that's a LOT cheaper than our OilHeads.

Enter BMW, whose reputation for quality, durability and longevity are beyond legendary. Their bikes predominately sought after by experienced, financially secure, hard core motorcycle riders finally willing and able to afford the comparatively premium price. Oooops! One of their suppliers obviously made some bad parts. Judging by the span of years and odometer readings that span the spline failures, quite a run of them too. The BMW factory suits develop amnesia and master the art of denial. The small, but too large group of affected riders scratch their heads in disbelief while the extremely large current and future customer base, thru the magic of the internet and word-of-mouth, slowly becomes aware of the real numbers . . . . . .


There's only ONE WAY this ends well.


.

[frbank6]

Cyclerob,

That 8799.00 Bandit 1250 ABS just moved to the top of my replacement list!

[riceburner]

Years ago at Pocono Raceway in PA I spoke with one of the pit crew of a stunt show where the air/oil cooled 1200 Suzuki Bandit they were using for burn-outs, stoppies, long wheelies and engine rev crowd salutes (where the throttle is held open while the engine rapidly bounces off the rev limiter for about 3 seconds per salute). The burn-outs start in 2nd gear and up-shift without the clutch by using an added kill button. The final tire blowing, redline burn out creates enough smoke to completely obscure the bike, rider and a large portion of the track. I asked them later on how many bikes they've blown up in a season. He said "It lasts the WHOLE season". That's for a bigger, non performance standard bike that's a LOT cheaper than our OilHeads.

it's probably worth pointing at this stage that the Bandit 1200 is a DETUNED, LESS STRESSED version of the GSX1100-R engine that was developed for Endurance racing in the 90s. As such it's designed to be run at the ragged edge for long periods, the bandit engine is a very good example of an engine that's far, far more capable than the uses to which it is being put. (even stunting).

Enter BMW, whose reputation for quality, durability and longevity are beyond legendary. Their bikes predominately sought after by experienced, financially secure, hard core motorcycle riders finally willing and able to afford the comparatively premium price. Oooops! One of their suppliers obviously made some bad parts. Judging by the span of years and odometer readings that span the spline failures, quite a run of them too. The BMW factory suits develop amnesia and master the art of denial. The small, but too large group of affected riders scratch their heads in disbelief while the extremely large current and future customer base, thru the magic of the internet and word-of-mouth, slowly becomes aware of the real numbers . . . . . .


There's only ONE WAY this ends well.


.

yes. The company opens up other market niches and builds up a strong customer base from different users. (which is exactly what's happening).

[Bill Stevenson]

Have any of you guys ever actually ridden a Suzuki Bandit 1200? Buzzy. Buzzy. Buzzy. Have any of you tried to ride one all day long? Never mind day after day while on tour. A good friend of mine rode his 1200 Bandit on a week long tour with a group of us on BMWs and suffered permanent damage to his hands from the thing. At the end of each day while the rest of us relaxed and got ready for dinner, he was a basket case of jangled nerves. Great bike that. If any of you seriously believes the Bandit is a better bike than a BMW, I wish you well. And all this because of spline failures? Does anybody know of a spline failure on a 1991 or newer bike that had been lubed properly?

Bill

[OU812]

The only way BMW would HAVE to do anything about the spline/FD or any other poorly engineered system is if riders are getting hurt from the failures. Then the NHTSA or some government bureaucracy to get invovled.
Good luck with that. Save your $$$$ for upcoming repairs. I am.

[frbank6]

Have any of you guys ever actually ridden a Suzuki Bandit 1200? Buzzy. Buzzy. Buzzy. Have any of you tried to ride one all day long? Never mind day after day while on tour. A good friend of mine rode his 1200 Bandit on a week long tour with a group of us on BMWs and suffered permanent damage to his hands from the thing. At the end of each day while the rest of us relaxed and got ready for dinner, he was a basket case of jangled nerves. Great bike that. If any of you seriously believes the Bandit is a better bike than a BMW, I wish you well. And all this because of spline failures? Does anybody know of a spline failure on a 1991 or newer bike that had been lubed properly?

Bill

From the posts here, ALL of the failures are on newer than 91 bikes, and according to BMW, lubing is not required. And as for 'buzz', there seems to be an awful lot of posts on this board asking for help to clear us those 'buzzy' mirrors...I don't think Suzuki has a corner on that market.

[MattPie]

Does anybody know of a spline failure on a 1991 or newer bike that had been lubed properly?

As someone stated, oilheads don't need spline lube. I don't think there's even a procedure in the shop manual. Also, someone in another thread (See "Disaster! (I think)", I think) just had the ominous no power, coffee grinder sound on a bike with 16k. I'm sorry Bill, people aren't making this stuff up.