Follow-up: Fuel leak

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challey
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Follow-up: Fuel leak

Post by challey »

I posted earlier about loosing a tankful of gasoline through what Cycle Rob rightly surmised was as open injector. We now can pretty accurately guess that the cause was a shorted wire due to the harness rubbing against the fuel tank.

Here's where the harness rubbed the tank (left anterior view):
Image


And here's a view of where the wire harness contacted the tank:
Image


While at first, it looked like things wouldn't be too bad to fix, on closer inspection, it got worse:
Image


And worse still:
Image
Image


You can see that the insulation is completely melted off of at least one of the wires and that the heat from that melted the insulation of adjoining wires compounding the problem. At this point, I can't tell what the the shorted wire was connected to since I can't tell it's color. Obviously, the circuit supported by that wire is unfused (there are no blown fuses in the box) - kind of poor design. So the working theory is that somewhere along the line, the wire controlling the left fuel injector was bared and pressed against another bared wire, opening the injector. The odd thing is that the wire with the power must always be hot (not controlled by the ignition switch) since the fuel drained while the bike was parked.

At this point, I'm not sure how many wires are involved and will have to strip off the tape and sleeving from most of the harness to find out. Then I'll have to make a decision to either run new wires or replace the whole harness. There are not presently any used harnesses at Beemer Boneyard and I can only imagine that a new one will be north of a grand.

While this is admidtedly a rare problem, it is one that could easily have been avoided by either running the wire harness differently (or covering it with something more robust) or fusing the circuit. The one bit of good luck here is that this didn't happen on the road - looking at the condition of the wires, it's hard to imagine how things didn't fail much earlier.

I would urge everyone to take a quick look under the tank and make sure that your harness is not rubbing. To prevent it from doing so in the future, either reroute the harness slightly or put additional insulation on the underside of the tank.

More on this later.

Charlie






After conferring with Cycle Rob,
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Re: Follow-up: Fuel leak

Post by omg1010 »

Charlie,

this is a rare but very nasty problem. A new harness costs a fortune (here in Germany around 750 Euros - approx. USD 1100)

However there is one on auction at a famous auction platform starting with an "e" (see auction number 120426769470).

I had a similar problem some time back and replacing individual wires especially if several wires are glued together is near to impossible. I got myself a used harness and got it replaced by my local garage (took them one day to replace the harness).

Good luck man and kind regards
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Re: Follow-up: Fuel leak

Post by challey »

Oliver --

Sorry to hear that you had the same problem, especially since it's one that's should never occur. Hard to believe that BMW would have unfused circuits - I understand that the headlight harness is also unfused.

I'll check out that auction site . . .

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I understand that the headlight harness is also unfused.

Post by Karmøy »

And the reason for that is,Fuse going when you ride at night..total darknes appear.

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Re: Follow-up: Fuel leak

Post by Daryl.Stamp »

I'd take the fused circuit; unfused will put your lights out at night too; but w/ worse consequences.

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Re: Follow-up: Fuel leak

Post by CycleRob »

After seeing those pics all I can say is

O.M.G! :smt013 :smt100 :smt107 :smt078
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Re: Follow-up: Fuel leak

Post by jfslater98 »

I know what I'm doing when I get my bike back from Klaus.

Rob, with the pictures above, is that wiring harness attached with the cable ties we should cut, as mentioned here? (not that one necessarily has to do with the other).
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Re: Follow-up: Fuel leak

Post by challey »

jf said:
is that wiring harness attached with the cable ties we should cut, as mentioned here?
This is NOTthe same wire bundle. This is the main wire harness that runs down the frame of the bike, under the tank. You will need to remove the tank to get to the area but I can promise that it will be a well-spent effort if you can prevent what happened to me. Once you have the tank off, you will see that there are two branches of the bundle that are cable tied together, with the outer branch looped bringing the top of the bend into close proximity with the underside of the tank. You can see what I'm referring to here:
Image

What you want to do is to prevent the top of the loop from contacting the tank. Since BMW made the [poor] decision to leave so many circuits unproteced by fuses, they really should have done much more to ensure that the the unfused lines were protected from accidential grounding. If this happens to you, I can guarantee that the repair by a dealer will be over $2,000. A new harness alone is about $1,100 and it will take a least a day's worth of labor to install.

If it sounds like I'm a little p*ssed off about this, I am. I can't believe BMW is not aware of the potential for this kind of catastrophic failure and at the very least, they should have issued a Service Bulletion about it.

Don't let this happend to you - check your bike NOW!

Charlie
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Re: Follow-up: Fuel leak

Post by sweatmark »

Wow. Even if this is the first recorded instance of R1150** wiring harness failure, it's both dramatic and sobering. Another strike against BMW Motorrad quality.

I helped a friend re-wire part of his early '70s airhead last winter. The wiring was old but serviceable, with larger gauges used for most every circuit when compared with our 2002+ R1150** bikes. Airheads use several unfused power supply circuits, and it seems we have several (especially through key switch) whose design philosophy has not changes over time. Witness the charging circuit lamp as discussed by CycleRob in a recent thread.

The kinked/folded main harness sections on left- and right-hand side of the front subframe have always made me wonder... did BMW design a single wiring harness for use in all R1150** bikes, with extra length taken up by that awkward fold we find on Roadsters and Rocksters?

Makes me wonder about the CAN-BUS bikes and long-term operation: will such survive the test of time?

Also, could a master fuse be placed within the main harness to avoid such a bad harness short and meltdown?
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Re: Follow-up: Fuel leak

Post by iowabeakster »

I just remembered that jbuzzbee was talking about selling his bike to Beemer Boneyard due to his spline issue. Maybe you can contact him about getting a harness before it happens, or afterwards from the boneyard. Even if you decide to get rid of the bike, you'll get a lot more if it's running.

...just a thought...

I really like the SV650 too. :D

Here's the thread:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=17794
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Re: Follow-up: Fuel leak

Post by TicTac50 »

My riding buddy had to replace wire harness on his 2003 R1150RT.
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Re: Follow-up: Fuel leak

Post by rdsmith3 »

The last three pictures (worse, worser, and worst) are not appearing.
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Re: Follow-up: Fuel leak

Post by OU812 »

CycleRob wrote:After seeing those pics all I can say is

O.M.G! :smt013 :smt100 :smt107 :smt078
Really. Hop you get er' straightened out. ;)
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Re: Follow-up: Fuel leak

Post by CycleRob »

Just got a call from Boxermania and we mostly discussed this thread. Al noted the Copper Sulfate in the bottom wire harness portion of this pic:

Image

That blue/greenish paste is the result of battery acid eating away at the copper wires. That can and did cause ALL these serious problems in the electrical system. Somehow the injectors, which are electrically linked in parallel, had to be grounded on their negative side -and- powered on their power side by shorts that occurred in the wire harness and wire shorting to the fueltank underside. His full tank of gas could then siphon thru the fuel return hose, dripping from both injectors over a 5--6 day period. The pressure side could not do that because of the pressure regulator valve attached to the plastic fuel rail behind the engine. The left cylinder's valves were closed and the fuel filled that intake port high enough to drip out a point well upstream of that injector. The right cylinder's intake valves had to be at least partially open and that was the one that filled the crankcase with fuel leaking past the piston rings . . . . for days. A covered bike outside exposed to the sun and/or normal daily temp swings could provide the fuel siphon starting inertia. Literally a perfect storm of disastrous proportions.

Here's the bad and really bad things:
--Battery may be near dead from the days of an unknown power level drain.
--Battery acid eaten wire harness is definitely not repairable and is a handling/testing hazard.
--One or both fuel injectors could be damaged from their extended 100% duty cycle operation.
--The Motronic's electronics could be permanently damaged.

In addition to checking your harness for rubbing against the fueltank, make sure your conventional battery's vent hose is solidly connected and not cracked. Even a maintenance free battery can freeze and/or crack and spill it's Sulfuric acid where the road wind will push it around the area. If you see ANY signs of spotted paint or accelerated corrosion you must give the area a baking soda + water solution brush wash and extended rinse after disconnecting the battery.

What a sh!t sandwich this one is. Even though it so far has only happened to Challey, we all got a taste of that sandwich.

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Re: Follow-up: Fuel leak

Post by Boxer »

Rob,
I don't doubt your prognosis for a second on this, but I am in awe how the battery acid could migrate that far forward and upward and also into the wrapped wire harness! Is there no other possible reason those wires could have that green residue on them? Couldn't the intense heat generated, having burnt all that insulation, have made that residue? Al? What say you?

I DID notice at the tech session that Roxster's Rockster has what appeared to be acid burn up front on his telelever. Josh, you better take your tank off!
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Re: Follow-up: Fuel leak

Post by boxermania »

Phil

Actually the wire harness as you have seen by the photos has two covers, the rubber one at the top, near the tank support and cloth tape at the bottom end, which interestingly enough resides close and below to where the lead acid battery vent would be located.

I talked to Challey and he also indicated that his bike had been knocked down while parked 3 times!!!!! albeit over the period of a few years.

The thing that fascinated me about this failure.....sic, is that injectors need two conditions to turn on....power, with the key in the on position and ground via turning on a transistor connected to ground within the Motronic ECM.

So.....we know that gasoline leaked past the injector as it is the only available path and either the injector(s) was stuck open or was electrically activated. The bike was on the center stand and the ignition was off, so there was no system power via the key switch.
That being said, I think the precedent to this failure might have been a decay of the insulation of the wires in the harness allowing the wires to short out and by the luck of the draw activate the injector(s) allowing the gasoline to flow past the injectors into the combustion chamber/engine sump..

My conspiracy theory comes from the interesting accumulation of copper sulfate, see picture #4 at the base of the cloth tape, as this doesn't take place unless copper is in contact with sulfuric acid.

I have suggested to Challey to have the injectors tested.....if they are in good working order, it lends support to the conspiracy theory.

Needless to say this is a one in a million occurrence and a very sad one at that.
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Re: Follow-up: Fuel leak

Post by Boxer »

Okay, that said, if it further proves to be the case, can Challey not make an insurance claim on this event? I would think this bike is now "Totaled".
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Re: Follow-up: Fuel leak

Post by rdsmith3 »

Am I the only one not able to see all the pictures? I just get a red X.
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Re: Follow-up: Fuel leak

Post by boxermania »

Insurance claim....excellent point Phil, if Challey had full coverage he should definitely explore that option.
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Re: Follow-up: Fuel leak

Post by challey »

Hadn't thought about an insurance claim - the bike certainly must be "totalled" at least as defined by insurance companies.
Low chance of success but worth a shot.
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