another victim-clutch splines; beyond disappointed

[sweatmark]

Another good oilhead spline topic thread.

I'm not interested in debating loyalty, liability, or lube-ability. All applicable to oilhead spline failures, for sure.

I don't believe anyone outside of BMW Motorrad headquarters is privy to comprehensive data for BMW R1150** bikes that have suffered clutch/transmission input spline failures at whatever odometer reading. Consequently, discussions about failure statistics - or comparison of R1150** durability versus other motorcycles - are moot.

What I'm interested in is this: millions of on-road vehicles use a dry, single-plate clutch and splined sliding connection between clutch hub and manual transmission input shaft. In passenger car applications, the splined power transfer connection just does not fail. What brand/model of manual transmission car has ever gained a reputation for failed transmission input splines? When was the last time you saw a car stranded at side of road, motor running, but without connection to transmission (or transaxle) because of failed clutch hub splines? Did you ever have to include transmission input shaft spline lubrication as part of regular maintenance for an automobile?

My Edition 80 Rockster signifies 80 years of BMW motorcycle manufacturing. That's 80 years using the same basic drivetrain design: longitudinal crank boxer motor, dry single-plate clutch, automotive style clutch splines, drive shaft, final bevel drive. That's 80 years of manufacturing and engineering experience... enough time to work out a few problems, I'd say.

My BMW car had a manual transmission (with clutch/input splines) built by Getrag. Guys in the BMW CCA club have 120k+ miles on their cars - rough miles, trackday miles, aggressive driving miles - without any indication ever that clutch hub/transmission input splines were a weakness. Burnt clutches, sure, but no problems with the splines. So that's the same vehicle manufacturer (BMW), using same OE transmission supplier (Getrag), applying the same conventional mechanical design to transfer engine power output to transmission (dry clutch, splined input shaft)... never a problem in automotive use, but a problem (whether pandemic or rare) in R1150** motorcycle applications.

I'm interested in diagnosis of the spline failure mode(s) and a strategy to cure the illness. Was hoping that AndyRR's alternative transmission input shaft would work out, and I still think that's worth development. Also - a jig design for alignment checks. Maybe an alternative clutch. Possibly all of the above.

[Beemeridian]

22

[CycleRob]

millions of on-road manual transmission vehicles have a dry, single-plate clutch and splined sliding connection between clutch hub and transmission input shaft. In automotive applications, this application of splined power transfer connection does not fail. What brand & model of manual transmission car has ever gained a reputation for failed transmission input splines? When was the last time you saw a manual transmission car stranded at side of road, motor running, but without connection to transmission (or transaxle) because of failed clutch hub splines? Did you ever have to include transmission input shaft spline lubrication as part of regular maintenance for an automobile?

Exactly !!

The same point I made recently in another failed spline post. It is a failure in metallurgy, design or manufacturing and too many OilHead riders are paying the price for a serious defect that BMW refuses to acknowledge or stand behind. This failure should NEVER happen!! Not even after wheelies, burnouts, 2-up high speed touring or championship track time. NEVER!

BTW, the belt drive on my 1 year old bike is amazing! Quiet, clean, efficient and zero maintenance. My new favorite FD system.

.

[chibbert]

BTW, the belt drive on my 1 year old bike is amazing! Quiet, clean, efficient and zero maintenance. My new favorite FD system.

Please design a conversion for my bike - I will gladly pay you Tuesday for a final drive system today.

[Buckster]

[quote="CycleRob"

BTW, the belt drive on my 1 year old bike is amazing! Quiet, clean, efficient and zero maintenance. My new favorite FD system.

.[/quote]

Maybe I should get a Harley!

[CNorris]

Well, as the original "poster" with the problem, I figured I'd update what's ensued. No one wants the bike as it is, even with all those farkles. So, I'm going to start tearing into it (pray for me) and get to the clutch splines/transmission shaft and see excactly how bad it is and go from there. My intention is to repair the bike and get it back on the road. In the meantime, I'm getting a lightly used DR650 to commute on and ride for pleasure (when I need a break from working on the R1150R and to fulfill some ADV fantasies). After I get my Oilhead back on the road, I'm going to ride it until next spring, then sell it (sadly and with regret). I'm going back to my roots (UJM's) and am seriously considering a Kawasaki ZRX1200. I want to love this bike but the issues are just too many and too serious. I just hope the final drive doesn't sh*t the bed after I fix the clutch splines.
I've missed two primo weeks of riding and I've been forced to use my cage to get to work, which is no fun. I'm probably looking at another two weeks or so of disassembly and reassembly to get the Oilhead back on the road. If I'm lucky and it goes well...
Take care and ride safe!

[fj_pastor]

Hello,

Sorry for the sad news ...

Once taken the decision to repair the bike .... all of us are with the same problem hanging behind us ... I would try the sexy R1200R (or the replacement if youn keep the bike for a couple more of years ... )

Every time I take the R I think of the dammed splines, but when I leave it after riding I would not change it.
Therefore the suggestion for the R1200R

Best regards and good luck with the dissasembly

[twindave]

Although my input shaft spines haven't failed yet. I wouldn't mind having the alternative improved shaft coupled with the RB sprung clutch (http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/bmw_clutches.html). I’d even be willing to wait several months or even a year for the parts.

I talked with Reto at Arbutus Controls Inc. in Canada (http://www.sunshinecoast.ca/bmw/InputShaft.pdf). He mentioned a 10 unit run to make it worth while. At this time, it seems there may be enough demand for at least a 10 unit run to produce the alternative shaft.

The biggest problem seems to be money....who's going to pony up 10K for 10 units or perhaps even more? I don’t think anyone has their hand up for that one. However, I'd sure like to buy just one unit.

I had a thought about creating some sort of escrow account with terms and conditions for the purchase of multiple units, so that anyone who wants one can throw in their chips for a single unit until there is enough for a full run of shafts. That way no one has to bet the farm in hopes of selling all the units. I sense there must be a way to pull this off.

If anyone has expert knowledge in this area, maybe we could all benefit from this potential endeavor.

Just a thought

Dave

[Beemeridian]

22

[Matts]

Ykes, does this suggest my beloved '02 is a ticking time-bomb just waiting for a spline failure?

[Ol' Jeffers]

Of course not! The incidence of this failure is quite tiny. There are plenty of other components that fail
arbitrarily as well. This is an expensive failure which 'grabs the headlines'. It happens. It's a machine.

[Keppelj]

I've been following this thread and got curious enough this afternoon to call the service guys at the dealership I use to see what they have to say about the splines issue. The dealership is Ride West in Seattle, a pretty big one, been there a long time. Mark in service said that he sees the problem mostly at around 50k miles more or less with some bikes: the 1150's more than the 1100's and the roadsters "for some reason" more often than other models. He said he thought the problem gets started with rust in the clutch splines and that usually the clutch splines fail first but take their toll on the input trans splines in the process. He said it didn't make sense to pull the bike apart to lube the splines but that it might make sense to pull the trans at 35k or so, replace the clutch plate and lube the then still Ok input splines. He didn't know why the incidence seemed higher with the RR models except to surmise it might have to do with the bike having less body enclosure/fairing protection. They figure it's a 12 hour job in their shop. Not sure if that included opening the transmission to replace a damaged shaft.

[Rex R.]

Hi everyone,

I may have joined the club this past weekend. I'm trying to figure out what happened inside my machine. (It only has 20,000 mi on it)

I was stopped in traffic, and when the light was about to turn green, I threw the bike into first and heard a horrible metallic grinding noise. The bike starts and runs fine, but when I pull the clutch in, I hear this grinding sound (not very loud; you have to listen for it), and then if I try putting it into gear (either first or second) it gets really loud. If I let the clutch out, the bike will actually move, but of course I won't try riding it like that.

Does this sound like the spline shaft? Clutch? Something else?

Thanks for any help you guys can offer.


(I posted this on other threads about the same topic to get info from as many people as possible. If you've seen this message on another thread, sorry for the duplication.)

[Xdot]

Not sure if that included opening the transmission to replace a damaged shaft.

Since 1 labor hour = 30 labor minutes, no. Shaft replacement would be a significantly longer operation.

[CNorris]

Rex R - sounds like you've joined the club, though if the bike still moves, the damage may not be as severe. Mine won't move. However, that doesn't cut down on the amount of time needed to get to the parts. I'm a few hours into tearing into the bike (now I know what's under the battery box!) and can see what it's going to take to get to the clutch. There's a lot of little stuff to deal with that you'd never think of - like removing the Bowden cable (found out it needs to be replaced) and throttle cables (right one needs to be replaced), which all meet under the battery box. Tip of an iceberg here...
Good luck Rex R! I'll be taking pics once I get somewhere significant. I'm interested in the RSR clutch and the possibility of an improved tranny spline. If my tranny spline is shot (good chance) I might just go with a new/used tranny. Time to go take the starter motor out...

[chibbert]

I'll be taking pics once I get somewhere significant.

Seriously looking forward to pics. And it's ALL significant so shoot away with the camera.

Chris

[twindave]

Although my input shaft spines haven't failed yet. I wouldn't mind having the alternative improved shaft coupled with the RB sprung clutch (http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/bmw_clutches.html). I’d even be willing to wait several months or even a year for the parts.

I talked with Reto at Arbutus Controls Inc. in Canada (http://www.sunshinecoast.ca/bmw/InputShaft.pdf). He mentioned a 10 unit run to make it worth while. At this time, it seems there may be enough demand for at least a 10 unit run to produce the alternative shaft.

The biggest problem seems to be money....who's going to pony up 10K for 10 units or perhaps even more? I don’t think anyone has their hand up for that one. However, I'd sure like to buy just one unit.

I had a thought about creating some sort of escrow account with terms and conditions for the purchase of multiple units, so that anyone who wants one can throw in their chips for a single unit until there is enough for a full run of shafts. That way no one has to bet the farm in hopes of selling all the units. I sense there must be a way to pull this off.

If anyone has expert knowledge in this area, maybe we could all benefit from this potential endeavor.

Just a thought

Dave

I’ve done some research on escrow accounts. I admit that I’m not a lawyer or associated with a legal entity, but I have discovered an escrow service that appears to be legitimate and has good feedback from their services. http://www.safefunds.com/index.html

This company allows the negotiation of terms and conditions between parties and will also act as an arbitrator if a dispute arises. This could be an excellent way to purchase the, very much need, improved input shaft for our R bikes from http://www.sunshinecoast.ca/bmw/InputShaft.pdf

I would be willing to talk with Reto regarding an escrow account to see if it can be arranged.

If Reto agrees, we would need a contract expert to write a set of terms and conditions to protect our interests and use that as a starting point to begin the negotiation process.

Is there anyone willing to donate their contract expertise and time?

I guess a more appropriate question would be: Is anyone else, besides me, interested in purchasing the improved input shaft?

[chibbert]

I wish I knew the specifics of the input shaft. i.e Helix angle, number of teeth, major diameter, minor diameter, Over Pin Diameter. I make shafts like these all day long and I could get a Japanese engineer to write me a program and could make my own.

[CNorris]

Well, I opened it up yesterday and found what was to be expected - the clutch splines almost completely absent and the tranny splines very damaged. I think the plan now is to order up the new clutch parts (and a rebuild kit for the clutch slave, since I have it out) and a good, used transmission. I found one on Ebay for $400 with good splines. Contrast that with the $3400 BMW wants for a new one. Any ideas for what I can do with the tranny that has bad splines? What are they worth?
I'm thinking I'm going to be out around $700 - $800 in parts, making a lot of stuff right along the way (the bike's got 62K on it after all) and a good chunk of my own labor. I will say this - it was a lot easier to do than I thought it would be (of course, it's not back together running yet, either...) and mostly just basic, tedious mechanical work. I do have the factory service manual on cd, so I printed out the relevant pages and just followed the instructions. I'd guess I have about 6-7 hours into it now, with another 1 or so coming when I separate the tranny from the final drive. But, so far, so good on the mechanical work. I think the next step will probably be the most difficult b/c of the threadlock the factory uses on the swingarm bushing and having to heat it to 248 or so. I'll just take my time and ease it on out of there. Or at least that's the plan.
As I cross major steps in the process, I'll post 'em but it bears repeating that so far it hasn't been that bad.
I found this in the service manual (21.7 Installing clutch) Lubrication points:(their bold) Splines on clutch plate and gearbox input shaft. Intersting, no?
Wish me luck!

[chibbert]

sonds like you are moving along.

Where does one come across a factory service cd?