WHY DOES ABS MATTER ?

[r12gecko]

Debate rages at http://www.f800riders.org around whether ABS on that bike (which I think has the same ABS system as ours) activates when it's not wanted due to road irregularities while braking.

I had three such occurrences on my 2007 F800ST (unwanted/dangerous ABS release of braking force), one at walking speed in which I clipped a car with my mirror (he stopped in front of me for a pedestrian who walked into the traffic line-up and my grabbing a handful caused the front to dive and ABS to release my brakes - wierd experience to bang into someone at slow speed like that - in retrospect, I might have hit the kill switch and had the engine stop, but when it happens you're more like "Hey! Where's my brakes?!!" and pumping the lever to get them back). Others claim never to have had the issue. There's debate there and elsewhere on the net over other manufacturers' bikes/cars as well - ABS is certainly not perfect.

I've had no indication from the R1200R over the summer I've owned it that I'll see any problem with our bike, which I put down to better suspension (especially no front dive, for which the F800 is imfamous) and our linked brakes. I feel good about the R12 ABS so far.

But if you want to see a real fight over this, search ABS at http://www.f800riders.org and grab a bag of popcorn...

[deilenberger]

I see no need to "fight" over it. I buy bikes with ABS (I've been known to add ABS to bikes that didn't have it..) Other people don't. Their bike, their choice. I won't try to convince people who don't want ABS, they shouldn't try to convince me. Ain't it great everyone has their own opinions. I like the linked brakes. Some people don't. Good for them. Some people (fools they are..) even think there are better bikes then the R12R.. more power to'm. If everyone knew the R12R was the greatest bike in the world, mine would be a prime theft target.

Meanwhile I thank Dog for the non-ABS'ers, they help provide spare parts for me.

[mogu83]

ABS does require some adjustment to riding maneuvers that have become natural reflexes. Riding into the gravel parking lots of a few of my favorite bars (Pubs to some) I used to slide the rear wheel the last few feet into my intended parking spot. I only did that once on the R12, the ABS kicked in when the wheel locked up and the brakes let loose. I envisioned myself going through the wall into the bar. (Let's not get into what my beverage of choice is while riding, but I was going into a bar).
Also going downhill on a gravel/dirt road with marble sized rocks is a real challenge on the R12 as you can't drag the rear brake/wheel. The Guzzi Norge (RT like bike) has a cut off for the ABS allowing better braking in the dirt, the R12 which is more suited for dirt road riding, would have greatly benefited from a similar setup. Maybe BMW didn't want to make the R12 too dirt road friendly because it would have cut into GS sales, IMHO except for the ABS switch, and with proper tires the R12R is a better dirt road bike than the GS.

[vodka]

re ABS.... for those who never ride in the wet the advantage of ABS is questionable. Careful riding, professional level braking skills it adds up to almost equal ABS v non ABS.
Add the wet road,leaf litter and ahh the differences IMO become serious. I rarely use a car and having experienced the ABS system both intentional and not, in the rain there is no other sensible option , for the small outlay , other than ABS.
All you need to know in that 2-3 secs of warning when you really didnt anticipate "IT", you will apply the death grip. Forget about controlled "lying the bike down" and emergency swerving. Hope you wash off enough speed to get below the "you're toast" level. ABS in the wet will do that v non ABS.

[Rocket]

Good debate guys. Thankyou. Its obviously a personal choice, most prefer it, some not.
Personally, I am glad I have it. It was a marginal choice when I bought the bike last year because I do low miles per year, ride only for pleasure in good weather and on dry roads (mostly). I hate the wet and am REAL careful if caught in it, hence the risk of emergency braking is quite low for me. Not actually happened yet, but maybe it will someday. Cannot be sure I would have enough time or presence of thought to exercise care with the brake lever, most probably I would squeeze hard and "lock".

Thread has been useful also to alerting me to the risk of riding down hill on dirt/gravel tracks. Not that I ride off road with the BM, I have a 400KTM for that, just realised that the ABS would disable most of the braking. Yikes. One to watch out for. Anyone been caught out in this way?

[TAG-Caver]

Good debate guys. Thankyou. Its obviously a personal choice, most prefer it, some not.
Personally, I am glad I have it. It was a marginal choice when I bought the bike last year because I do low miles per year, ride only for pleasure in good weather and on dry roads (mostly). I hate the wet and am REAL careful if caught in it, hence the risk of emergency braking is quite low for me. Not actually happened yet, but maybe it will someday. Cannot be sure I would have enough time or presence of thought to exercise care with the brake lever, most probably I would squeeze hard and "lock".

Thread has been useful also to alerting me to the risk of riding down hill on dirt/gravel tracks. Not that I ride off road with the BM, I have a 400KTM for that, just realised that the ABS would disable most of the braking. Yikes. One to watch out for. Anyone been caught out in this way?

I was running on a gravel road and tried to slide the rear end around a corner and the ABS kicked in. It was a pretty exciting moment! I'd rather have bought a bike w/o ABS, but none were available at the dealer. If a bike has ABS it should be switchable, there's a reason the GS models have that little button. My daily driver(beloved Suzuki DR650) is ABS free and I'm a year round rider, snow and all. While ABS can provide some benefits it's no substitute for learning how to ride a motorcycle properly. IMO people should learn in the dirt so they can gain experience in varying traction conditions and learn how to get a bike out of control, then bring it back w/o the worry of smacking into a semi. Just my $.02.

[deilenberger]

ABS is sorta like all-the-gear-all-the-time. If I knew what day I'd need it - I'd only ride a bike with ABS on that day..

I believe the R12R and the '07 up GS use the same ABS controller - so it should be fairly trivial to find out what connection on the controller is used to kill the ABS, then add it to the R12R for those who want to go off-road with one.

Funny - I can't recall hearing any complaints about R12R off-road from Chitown.. but then what would he know?...

[Tarmac]

Coming from a 4 wheeled performance car background, it amazes me that riders (on non-linked braking systems) are expected to precisely modulate the rear brake lever with their booted foot in perfect (and ever changing) harmony (due to bike and rider weight transfer) with the front brake which happens to be a hand lever. The consequences of not performing this delicate balance perfectly (under the duress of an emergency) lengthens stopping distances tremendously - not to mention the greatly increased possibility of going over the bars, etc, etc. On the R1200R, the brakes are linked like an automobile, so I can bury the handle and let the electronics adjust for the front/rear balance.

I would sure be interested in knowing how a non-ABS R1200R manages to link the front/rear without the benefit of the ABS speed sensors.

To me, the linked aspect of the ABS is an important feature.

As a retired road racer, I can say this. The back brake is almost never used on a race bike, the front brakes have so much power, that the rear wheel is just skimming along the road, touching the rear brake would just get it to skid.

When I did track day on my R12R, I got the rear tire chirping a couple times due to the combination of linked brakes, and down shifting. My understanding is that the linked brakes on a R12GS can be shut off, I'd like to look into getting that on my R.

[Stef.]

I thought I had replied earlier on to this post but somehow it does not show up.
Anyhow, very good debate.
My understanding is that you cannot turn of ABS on the R1200R but you can turn off ASC. (At least on my bike- model 2010) The other day I went down a relatively steep hill on gravel and the ABS which kicked in was a real pain. I felt like a total beginner (perhaps I still am...) as I wasn't sure how to react. Letting the bike roll in first gear was too fast. Applying the brakes did not help much either as the bike, due to the pebbles was slightly skidding which made the ABS react.

So my question is: would disabling ASC help in situations like the above? How do you ride your bike down a steep gravel hill?
Thanks
Stef.

[mogu83]

Stef - I guess the trick is to stay in first (or at least a low) gear and use the compression of the engine to slow you down. Tough part is that if you pick up too much speed the bike can get away from you, and then your in real trouble. I can't see turning off the ASC would help in a down hill on gravel dirt road situation.

Someone suggested pulling in the clutch, turning the ignition off and then letting the clutch out using the engine to slow down. Another suggested turning the bike off and rolling down the hill and the ABS would be turned off. Either would definitely be a last ditch resort for me .

As I said before with the ABS turned off and a set of Pirelli Scorpions the R1200R would be an ideal dirt road bike.

[angellr]

Stef,

I was actually in a similar situation a month or so ago. I found pumping my front brakes while in 1st gear sorta worked and helped to minimize the ABS effect. Also, on my bike ('07) it feels that if the back brake is applied without the front, the ABS seems to act differently (am way too new to my bike to give you a definitive answer here).

Harry,

The R with GS tires *would* make a good off-road ride, however, would go with an F650/800GS first due to a few other factors (Inseam challenged).

[mogu83]

The R with GS tires *would* make a good off-road ride, .

Note: I stipulated a Dirt Road Bike I don't even consider the GS a "good" off road bike

[angellr]

The R with GS tires *would* make a good off-road ride, .

Note: I stipulated a Dirt Road Bike I don't even consider the GS a "good" off road bike

Ok, good point and distinction.

[ka5ysy]

Thread has been useful also to alerting me to the risk of riding down hill on dirt/gravel tracks. Not that I ride off road with the BM, I have a 400KTM for that, just realised that the ABS would disable most of the braking. Yikes. One to watch out for. Anyone been caught out in this way?

Yep... found out about the downhill in gravel/dirt thing in a right turn following a F650GS guy that was scared to stand up and ride down the hill. He sat down and slowed way down with me about 30 feet behind him. I applied the rear brake and......... nothing !


Happily, I did a quick downshift and used combined engine braking and shifting weight side to side to steer around the F650 without a crash. Very thrilling ride that day

[Stef.]

Thanks for your answers. ka5ysy, the same with the rear brake happened to me and frankly it scared the hell out of me! Down shifting didn't help either as I was already in first gear...I pumped the front brakes as angellr did but frankly it did leave me with a foul taste. I love my bike and off road is not something that I do that often but I would love to know how to safely slow down the bike downhill without my brakes "failing". I have read in the handbook - and probably I got this completely wrong...that the bike once it "learns" where you are (I guess after a couple of minutes on the gravel road) that it then adjusts the ABS to your circumstances. Not sure how this would work and how long this adjustment takes, but I do hope there is some truth in this?
Stef.

[mogu83]

...that the bike once it "learns" where you are (I guess after a couple of minutes on the gravel road) that it then adjusts the ABS to your circumstances. Not sure how this would work and how long this adjustment takes, but I do hope there is some truth in this?
Stef.

Don't bet your life on it!!

[hjsbmw]

I am basically from the old school that says 'the more it has the more can break' and was somewhat reluctant to buy a motorcycle with ABS for that reason. I never needed the ABS so far. Be that as it may, it may be handy when you actually need it.

My one gripe with the ABS is that when I am braking on a bad road where a wheel bumps around and gets airborne briefly the brake seems to open up. That is, in fact, not a safe feeling, especially when approaching someone who is stopped.

[rokinrider]

I got in a pickle Monday and had to brake hard to avoid a car slamming on the brakes. I am wishing I had ABS now, I did not crash but rear tire was doing the funky chicken and I thought I was going to lose it (close). It did slow me down a bit but IMHO ABS would have been nice. Thats what I get for going cheap on my purchase.

[ka5ysy]

I have read in the handbook - and probably I got this completely wrong...that the bike once it "learns" where you are (I guess after a couple of minutes on the gravel road) that it then adjusts the ABS to your circumstances. Not sure how this would work and how long this adjustment takes, but I do hope there is some truth in this?
Stef.

Actually the ABS system is a fixed-operation setup that compares the front and rear wheel rotation speeds to detect a difference by counting the pulses that are generated by the slotted ring on the front and rear axles. That data is fed into the ABS computer which then releases the brakes and reapplies them very quickly when it detects a wheel lockup. Generally, pumping the brake levers will defeat the ABS function, but lengthen the stop distance, which is why drivers are told to stay hard on the brakes in cars if you are in the emergency stop situation.

Net result is that we are stuck with a non-switchable setup on the RR and must act accordingly. The good thing is that the RR ABS is a great threshold braking device that gives us essentially maximum braking without a lockup and crash when in a good-traction situation. Off road, not so much.

[Rocket]

Probably a silly idea , but when going off-road (and wanting no ABS) , would it be possible to "fool" the ABS computer (to disable its opeation) by either removing the ABS ring on the front wheel (or the opposite and tape it up) ?
And if this kind of thing could work (but too much hassle) how about taping over the sensor?