Interest in a smaller Boxer?

[mogu83]

Hope we don't get yelled at for stealing the thread - but at least we're still on small bikes.
The Japanese manufactures are making a lot of small 400cc single/twin bikes that look like the café racers of the 60's, unfortunately they don't import them to the US because we don't have a graduated license system and people (even new riders with no experience) go right for the 0ne liter plus bikes. The other more experienced riders (those with two or more seasons or 1,000 miles ) wouldn't ride a "girls bike" or a "starter Bike".
I have two 125cc Hondas that are set up as 60's era café racers and although they are unsafe on our highways (USA) because of the high speeds and peoples attitude, they are however a lot of fun on back roads. I have friends that have never ridden anything under 1,000cc and when I convince them to go for a ride on the 'little' bikes they can't get the smile off their face.

I've often wondered if any of those Japanese mid size bikes (400cc ish) make it to Australia, maybe one of the Aussie guys could answer.

BEFORE:

[img]

[CRazyCam]

Hi Harry.

Here in Oz, up until fairly recently, we didn't get too many of the 400cc bikes from Japan.

For quite a while we had up to 250, as a limit for learner riders, then onto the big bikes.

In recent years we've had a change, where by learners are allowed bigger machines, up to 660cc in most states, so long as the power to weight ration is under some magic number. I think it's 150 kilowatts per tonne.

Since that change we have had more of the 400cc bikes coming in.

Most experienced male riders here do seem to have the fear that, if they are seen riding a bike of less than 1000cc, their dicks will shrivel up and drop off. <shrug>

Bikes like the 600 Hornet, 600 FZ yamaha and Triumph 675 Street Triple are all seen as "girly" bikes.

Incidentally, my wee Honda is smaller than your wee Hondas.....

Ever see a Honda Z50? Sorry I can't figure out how to show a picture of it.

regards,CrazyCam

[jess]

You can have more fun riding a slow bike fast than you can have riding a fast bike slow.

Put another way, the "fun zone" of almost any machine is to be found right at the outer edge of its capabilities. On a smaller bike, the edge of the envelope is achievable on normal streets without necessarily needing to violate every traffic law on the books (just some of them). On a literbike, you don't hit that outer edge until you're well past jail.

[hjsbmw]

You can have more fun riding a slow bike fast than you can have riding a fast bike slow.

Put another way, the "fun zone" of almost any machine is to be found right at the outer edge of its capabilities. On a smaller bike, the edge of the envelope is achievable on normal streets without necessarily needing to violate every traffic law on the books (just some of them). On a literbike, you don't hit that outer edge until you're well past jail.

The only thing I'd like to add to what jess and mogu83 said is that besides the missing fun factor I don't even feel I am doing the engine a favor by lugging it around town. This bike seems to be made for different things and shines/breathes when I take it to the open roads and hills of western NC. It's actually excellent at eating miles on the interstate also, but that's not where the true joy lies.

[mogu83]

But strangely enough the R1200R (and F800R/K1300R) are marketed by BMW as URBAN bikes.

Wikipedia: An urban area is characterized by higher population density and vast human features in comparison to areas surrounding it. Urban areas may be cities, towns or conurbations, but the term is not commonly extended to rural settlements such as villages and hamlets.

I think something must have been lost in the translation.

[jess]

But strangely enough the R1200R (and F800R/K1300R) are marketed by BMW as URBAN bikes.

I think they're only "urban" because they're not dual sports, they're not fully-faired touring bikes, and they're not sports bikes. What other category could the marketing department try to stuff the R12R into, if not urban? Note that this doesn't make the R12R an ideal urban bike, it just means that marketing was out of ideas the day they came up with that categorization and decided that they'd rather be drinking than working so hard.

I personally think they're much closer to touring bikes than anything else, but since "naked tourer" isn't a widely recognized category, my opinion means squat.

[mogu83]

Just had a brilliant idea (rarely happens).
This is how they should have marketed it:

A RETURN TO A TIME HONORED BMW TRADITION. INTRODUCING THE NEW

---------------------------- R1200/8. ------------------------------------------

A return to the slash tradition. We give you the basic platform - you finish it.

[Jed]

A RETURN TO A TIME HONORED BMW TRADITION. INTRODUCING THE NEW

------------------ R1200/8. ----------------------

A return to the slash tradition. We give you the basic platform - you finish it.

Wouldn't that be nice, . . . I can see a cute little "S" fairing on my R12R from time to time . . .

[Caroanbill]

BMW has played a bit with the small bike in the last decade .. but none have really stuck. I think the F650CS came closest (yeah, I would say that), and would still be a great urban bike - the motor is back in production (albeit chinese) in the G650GS ... it qualifies for various learner schemes ... comes with ABS ...

I've often wondered if any of those Japanese mid size bikes (400cc ish) make it to Australia, maybe one of the Aussie guys could answer.

A few 200n SR400s about (some brought in by Deus Ex Machina for re-modelling), and under our LAM scheme (leaner approved motorcyle) Honda CB400 four does quite well as a new bike (with ABS) ... but a really sweet 400 - 600cc thumper with decent brakes and competent suspension .. not much lately. We had the same japanes phase of them in the late 1980s - CBR500, GB500, SRX600 etc - but their brakes , fames and suspension are generally worse than the equivalent age BMW twin.

Jap twins, we got - ER6N Kawawsakis; SV650 Suzukis in their various forms (including detuned LAM bikes), the gutless GS500E Suzuki ... even the Yamaha Dragstar XVS650 ...

Mostly, we're still awash with grey import 250s ...

[Mark_1]

Perhaps we could persuade the Japanese to restart production of an updated Maruso ST - 500cc and 250 lb(?). Saw one of these in a junkyard in AZ. Looked like a fun little machine.



http://www.marusholilac.com/ml5.htm

Mark_1

[Ric]

hjsbmw......your post doesn't make much sense, ------ That is to say, anyone who has to be above 100 mph before they can enjoy their motorcycle is doomed to die

WOW isn't the internet great. I had to look at hjsbmw's posts to see what I missed. Ric - do you work for a major news agency? Seems like the kind of imaginative news reporting we're getting now days. I read hjsbmw post to reflect the old saying: You can have more fun riding a slow bike fast than you can have riding a fast bike slow.

Agreed, that's the sentiment I got from hjsbmw's post as well. I've often had similar thoughts as hjsbmw and am in fact looking for a smaller, lighter, less powerful bike with handling on par with the R12R, not to replace the R12R but in addition to the R12R. I love the character of twins and I'd love a bike that allowed this old brain more time to enjoy the ride and required more effort to ride quickly. I've been looking at the 690 Duke for this purpose. If the F800R was offered with a belt, I'd buy it in a heartbeat. A modern 750 boxer with weight proportional to it's 65-70 bhp would be just the ticket. But I agree that the cost would be too high for acceptance by the general market. It's a shame that all the technological advances haven't produced a modern, light, upspec'd ride with a motor that can be serviced without the need for computers and specialty equipment.

cheers,

Gezzzz......easy fella's.....I'm sorry if i misunderstood......although I'm not sure what I isunderstood...

I thought hjsbmw post is pretty clear, "When I feel my oats I am at 100mph before I can even enjoy it."
I merely stated that if you live having fun above 100 mph you might just die doing it. I admitted to being guilty myself.

And, "Riding to work I often feel I am not even letting the engine breathe." I simply showed him what I use to get the feel of wringing a bike out, my RD.

And Jed wrote: "It's a shame that all the technological advances haven't produced a modern, light, upspec'd ride with a motor that can be serviced without the need for computers and specialty equipment." Well duhh....isn't that what I'm showing with the picture of my RD ?

[mogu83]

Check this out --- For Japanese home consumption only.


http://www.motorcycledaily.com/2011/01/ ... -in-japan/

[Jed]

Gezzzz......easy fella's.....I'm sorry if i misunderstood......although I'm not sure what I isunderstood...

I thought hjsbmw post is pretty clear, "When I feel my oats, I am at 100mph before I can even enjoy it."
I merely stated that if you live having fun above 100 mph you might just die doing it. I admitted to being guilty myself.

. . . and there in lies the misunderstanding. You took hjsbmw's words completely out of context and in doing so you misunderstood his intent.

hjsbmw said "I am at 100 mph before I can even enjoy it" -not- "I need to be at 100mph before I can enjoy it.

What he was implying is that the R12R accelerates so quickly and smoothly that when he's feeling frisky, before he has time to realize it - he is going over 100mph. He wants to be able to feel frisky and have the bike take longer to get going that fast, hence the thread title about a smaller (less powerful) boxer.. He wants to be able to push the engine a bit, have fun, feel frisky and stay below 100 mph. We all recognize that riding a bike at 100mph+ is dangerous. This thread is about having fun riding slower (closer to legal speeds).

The point is you can have a ton of fun on a less-powerful bike. And since we all love the Boxer engine, we'd like a smaller, less powerful, lighter and cheaper boxer to ride around. All of this is nothing new, most road bikes are over powered these days. I want a bike with about 60 bhp that weighs somewhere around 300# - so that I can have fun riding between 40 mph and 70 mph.

When I first got my R12R after break-in I took it out to see what it would do on some NH back roads. So I opened up the throttle and ran through the gears, hitting the rev limited or nearly doing so in each gear. Before I had time to check my speed, I was going 125 mph on a NH state highway (2-lane road, no median, speed limit 45). So I understood hjsbmw's point about the R12R going too fast too quickly for non-racer types. The R12R is sooo powerful and sooo smooth that we lose the sensation of speed from the engine. So if people don't pay attention, they'll end up riding faster than they want to.

The R12R is perfect for high-speeds but it's heavier and more powerful than it needs to be for 90% of the riding I do which is twisties near legal speeds (so 30 to 70 mph). I don't need a bike that goes 130 mph. Hell I don't even want to ride at over 80 mph - it's not fun for me at those speeds on public roads. I want to be able to have fun (corner at speed, power out of the corners) and keep my license (stay within 15 mph of the speed limit). So I'm looking for a bike that is underpowered for highway use but is lively and fun to ride at speeds below 70 mph.

Does that clear up the confusion?

[Ric]

hjsbmw said "I am at 100 mph before I can even enjoy it" -not- "I need to be at 100mph before I can enjoy it.

Does that clear up the confusion?

Ahhh...well that's very different. Yes. You have eradicated my confusion. And BTW....a 400 or 500 cc boxer would be fun, but I'd have to set those jugs up pretty high in the frame to keep from draggin' the daylights out of them.

hjsbmw...maybe you need to investigate a restoration project.
There are other really fun bikes out there.....besides my RD, my Black Bomber handles like a modern sport bike.

I'll use any excuse to show off my bikes !

[Ric]

hjsbmw said "I am at 100 mph before I can even enjoy it" -not- "I need to be at 100mph before I can enjoy it.

Does that clear up the confusion?

Ahhhh......well thats very different. Yes, you have eradicated my confusion.
BTW....a 400 or 500 cc boxer would be a hoot. Although I'd have to have those jugs pretty high up in the frame to keep from dragging them. And, it'd have to weight in at least under 375 lbs.

hjsbmw......you might want to consider a restoration project. There are plenty of bikes out there for having fun on.
Including my RD, my Black Bomber handles like a modern sport bike.

I'll use any excuse to show off my bikes !