Need help please......

[renegade]

.......I have visited this board many times and have found some useful information. I hope that I can contribute some. What I need help with is understanding the bad vibes that it seems that many have with those of us that like the variety of riding different machines, particularly Harley Davidson. Now I know some of it is done with some fun attached, but I have seen some real hostility written on the topic. The overgeneralization of those of us who ride Harley Davidsons is pathetic, and lacks maturity. And yet many of those who condemn Harley riders as Knuckleheads (pun intended)...seem no better themselves.
I am a motorcyclist.....who rides different bikes for different ocassions....not beholden to any brand.......does that make me a renegade on this board????

[Kevin]

Ride on, Renegade!

I'm with you. My only real beef with Harley riders is for those that are unaccepting of other bikes, of which it seems many are. I am looking forward to some day trying my hand at a Sportster, but probably not 'till I heal my bank account's wounds from my recent purchase of the R, and then get a Yamy V-Max! I'll probably need to get a bigger garage, too.

Here's to all 2 wheelers!

Kevin

[new2BMW]

I am a motorcyclist...

I can't speak for everyone, but that's all I need to know.

You'll find a lot of people on this board who ride many different bikes other than their Roadster. Several guys here have HD equipment too.

There are some people here that don't like HD for one reason or the other. Reasons ranging from substandard engineering, old designs, brakes that don't work very well, even corporate marketing style.

Frankly, as our own Mr. Pat says, "Motorcycles is good".

[biggums]

I ride a 06 Street Glide a 98 FLHT and a 03 R1150R.

I can understand brand loyalty and as a matter of fact I think the loyalty thing is what makes these bikes and discussion groups fun. With cars who cares what you own or drive but the bikes gather emotion that to me is fun.

I just let the Harley bashing role by me and understand that the Harley guys are good at bashing the others too and maybe more. So with that in mind I try to understand this and never go to this site or others and talk up how great a Harley is over a BMW or visa versa.

To me these different brands offer unique features that any one bike cannot have.

I do tend to like v-twins, guzzi type twins and boxers mostly.

[leno]

.......I have visited this board many times and have found some useful information. I hope that I can contribute some. What I need help with is understanding the bad vibes that it seems that many have with those of us that like the variety of riding different machines, particularly Harley Davidson. Now I know some of it is done with some fun attached, but I have seen some real hostility written on the topic. The overgeneralization of those of us who ride Harley Davidsons is pathetic, and lacks maturity. And yet many of those who condemn Harley riders as Knuckleheads (pun intended)...seem no better themselves.
I am a motorcyclist.....who rides different bikes for different ocassions....not beholden to any brand.......does that make me a renegade on this board????

I don't like HD and I'm not shy about my opinion, but thats all it is I don't like scooters or drivers who sit in the middle lane either. What does gets my goat is HD riders that take exception to me holding the opinion. For some reason I'm not alowed to not like HD's because they are a fine American bike. Well I think that I should be free to like or dislike what I want. The fact it's made in the good old US of A should have no baring on the matter. And of course the more that people tell me I should do sopmthing the less I'm inclined to do it and the more I'm inclined to tell them to stuff it. But then the guy next door has a HD and he rides it instead of polishing it and he is a fine bloke. So I guess I also don't count people who just polish their bike as motorcyclist's. You are only a motorcyclist if you ride the bike rather than just owning and collecting them. But thats my opinion I don't expect people to agree but it works for me. As for hostility I save that for people who tell me how to think, not for what they ride.

[jonothan]

...does that make me a renegade on this board????

No, Renegade, it doesn't. Not in my book. Here's why. If I had the money - and the space - I'd own a Harley as well.

I'd use the Harley for riding up and down the seafront in Cleethorpes. I love the noise and presence of the Harley, and I've ridden one too. It felt good to ride, I loved the look too.

But for serious B-road riding in the Lincolnshire Wolds, the H-D cannot hold a candle to the BMW. For long distance touring, the Beamer is also the better bike.

I love all bikes. I even rather fancy a Ural with a sidecar so I can take Amy, our yellow Labrador, out for a spin. And we're all bikers, when all said and done.

The only thing I don't like is the idea or attitude that anything other than the marque of bike that you own is without merit. That sucks.

J

[Boxer]

Help has arrived!

Harley Davidson makes some fine motorcycles....but they are overpriced...but if you got the dough then buy one. That's the market.

Harley Davidson's have attained the reputation these days of being ridden by the well heeled lawyers, doctors, business nerds, etc...as a symbol of affluence.....but if they got the dough then more power to'em.

Harley Davidson's are associated with riders who ride without proper safe riding gear...but that's cleaning out the gene pool. Let nature take it's course.

Harley Davidson's have the reputation, from years of low quality bikes in the past, of not being road worthy for the long haul...And this is aggravated by the fact that a lot of Harley riders cruise around to local gathering places and watering holes and sit and ogle their shiney new status symbols without ever stretching the limits of the bike...Unless it's to see how far one can be towed without damage.

Other than that, I have no complaint one way or the other with Harley Davidsons...or their riders. Ride on Renegade!

[boxermania]

Having the dreaded engineering background and the analytical mind that goes with it, I can't help but technically disect the HD offerings......basically an anticuated design, just like the BMW boxers, with a sprinkling of recent technology here and there.

Looking at the welds, analyzing the ride and braking, how they hold up, what they cost and their reliability, the weight, I can't see myself ever owning one.

On the other hand, I have friends that have them, I ride with them or any other brand, wave at anyone that comes in the opposite direction and will stop and assist if someone in a HD needs assistance.

So, renegade, I accept you as a motorcycle brother and trust that you will accept me equally, irregardless of our beliefs and opinions.

To each it's own..............

[BobFV1]

Nothing against Harley's per se. My personal opinion is that they are poorly engineered, with their poor brakes, lack of ground cleaarance, and lack of power and they put form before safety, which I don't agree with.

I have nothing against the bikes but they just aren't for me. I do not like the loud pipes that people put on them,the apparent disdain for wearing proper safety gear, and the fact that there are lot of bars right here in Phoenix with H-D's lined up out in front every night. I know this is not all Harley riders, but it does seem to personify the overall rider "culture", at least in my area.

Also, I just ride fast and I don't like riding with Harley's because I have yet to meet a stock or near stock Harley that can keep up with my 1150 loaded and going up a grade. Most Harley's couldn't keep up with my R1 if both bikes were pushed off a cliff.

It's nothing personal, I have owned almost every brand of bike over the years - but never a Harley, and unless someone gives one to me it will probably remain that way.

[Acacia]

I ride with a lot with HD owners.

As a marque, the HD's I have ridden, I dont like. Hinged in several places, brakes that hardly work, too much vibration, seating position that I dont like, driven by a "rubber band", mostly sound like a wet fart and dont handle the way I like a bike to. But then, several other bikes would fit that catagory too.

It is not the bike that I really dislike, it is mostly those persons who's arrogance and conceit is such that they believe all bikes are compared to 'their' standard and think we want to be like them. That kind of 'elitist fundamentalism' is what is disliked. But then there are those same persons to be found among such marques as BMW too!!

The bikes themselves do not cause the dislike in me, but those owners that make riding 2 wheels in close proximity to them, objectionable.

[jonothan]

...I can now start my day knowing that I've done my good deed for the day. Saving another person from a fate, similar to the one I had, is enough for any man...

I'd only toyed with the idea, Frank, but thanks, mate, you have saved me from a fate worse than death!



J

[Kevin50r]

Most of the people that I know that own motorcycles own Harleys. As a group they are middle aged or older and most never had a bike until they bought their Harley. Most of them know little or nothing about motorcycles and made their purchases in order to participate in a "life style." They almost never ride alone unless it is to meet up with more Harley riders for a "ride".

The guys and girls I know that ride other brands do so after having ridden for many years on many different brands and styles and usually base their puchases on what they like or feel they need, not on what their peer group likes. I kind of notice that anyone who has any experience on bikes at all, if they own a Harley, also own at least one other brand of motorcycle.

It is also my experience that if I am going to be snubbed by another rider it is almost always a Harley rider. Just about everyone else will acknowlege me, whichever bike I am on at the time.

We took an accident report a couple of days ago from a fellow who t-boned a van with his "$22,000 Harley". In his own words he tried "standing on the rear brake, first" and when that didn't work he "layed it down on its side, cause they stop faster that way." When I asked him about using the front brake he looked at me like I was crazy and informed me I obviously didn't know anything about riding a bike.
It was clearly the van drivers fault and fortunately the rider and his female passenger, neither equiped with any safety gear, escaped any serious injury.

I realize this is just my opinion and I apologize in advance for anyone I offend. I would ride with any of the people I know that have Harleys if they would ride with me, but I don't drink and I tend to want to get out of town, not ride from bar to bar. I don't have a Harley myself for two primary reasons. 1) I think they are terrible overpriced for what you get, and 2) The image or lifestyle they represent is not something I want applied to me.

[sjbmw]

rut-roh.

We may be headed to the playhouse with this one!

OK, for your reading pleasure. (Just for fun now, ride what you like)

http://www.goingfaster.com/angst/noharley2.html

http://www.goingfaster.com/angst/fredrau.htm

[jonothan]

Just thought I'd add here.

A very good friend of mine, Joe, with whom I've spent many happy times skiing in Europe and walking in the Yorkshire Dales, owned a Harley. It was an 883 Sportster. He seldom rode it and it remained polished, decorating his warm dry garage. He sold it two years ago.

When I bought my BMW, I rode around to see him. He asked, as I knew he would, if he could have a ride on my new acquisition.

Some forty minutes later when he returned, he told me that if the Harley had been half as good to ride, he'd never have sold it.

Another point here is that Harley owners in the UK are, without any doubt, part of the biking brotherhood. OK, so some make the same fatuous claims that many H-D riders do, but they are, on the whole, an OK bunch. There is not the same patriotic image, as the bike is an import just like most others. There is a bad-ass culture but why not? If someone wants to appear bad-ass, well that's OK by me.

I don't want to be bad-ass myself. I may be a doctor, and I suppose middle class, but I'm not looking to change my persona. Biking for me is about time spent being at one with the machine, with no interruptions, no phone calls, being anonymous with the song of wheelspin and wind in my ears. And the pump of adrenaline.

I think that if I bought a Harley, it would be to cruise and be seen out cruising.

J

[dallara]

Hmmmmmm...

First off, Renegade - know that I respect your opinion, perspective, and choice of ride. I'm glad you are a fellow motorcyclist.

That said, I do grow somewhat weary of Harley riders proclaiming incessantly that they are some how "picked on" and "discriminated" against. To me it is a bit like some of the Jesse Jackson-type zealots claiming to be the champions of certain ethnic minorities... Somehow it is A-Okay for those minorities to practice baltant reverse-discrimination, demand to be treated better than other ethnic groups, howl long and hard for how their "culture" has to be "preserved", that they themselves can reserve the right to call themselves all sorts of racial epithets in their music and literature but will not stand for any other ethic group to characterize them that way, etc., etc., etc....

Kind of like many Harley riders don't mind calling each other "bikers" and " dirty shirts" and "outlaws", etc., but they consider it derogatory when someone else does. harley riders can bash Jap bikes as "riceburners", "rice rockets", "soy scooters", "fortune cookies" and the like, but no one is supposed to mutter old cliches like...

Harley-Davidson, made of tin... Ride it out, push it in...

Or...

If Harley-Davidson made an airplane, would you fly on one?

They even expect the motorcycling press, along with other riders, to judge and view their chosen mounts by a completely different standard than other makes, proclaiming all sorts of rationalizations like "Harley's aren't about performance, or braking, or handling... They're about cruisin', tradition, and making a lifestyle statement..." or some other equivalent drivel. How often have you seen a motorcycle magazine pussyfoot all through a road test of a Harley with constant comments like "...but it is a Harley, and so we didn't expect great brakes, as the bikes are about style..." or the like?

It may be hard to accept, but if one simply faces facts it is easy to see that Harley's are, for the most part, antiquated designs with poor handling, lousy brakes, substandard suspension, excessive weight, pitiful performance, and ridiculously overpriced. If it is your choice to go down that road, that's fine by me... But please don't tell me I have to be politically correct and not express my opinion of distaste for the brand.

Just so you know, I have many, many friends who own and ride Harley's, and all of them are great guys... Yet, it is funny... Some of them exhibit none of this "Harley Attitude" until you get 'em in groups. Then suddenly it is they who start tossing out the "riceburner" comments and barbs at our friends on Jap bikes, and lob a few over at Beemer riders (like me) such as "When you gonna' sell that Bratwurst Bike and get a real motorcycle?", or lay one or two out at our Italian riding brethren like "Pasta's for eatin', not ridin'...", etc. Why, I don't know... It's the Jonestown Kool-Aid, I guess. You can't seem to get a bunch of Harley riders around that they don't start looking down their noses at any other ride.

We're all still motorcyclists, but yet Harley owners seem to always want to be ranked by a different standard, and want everyone else to observe very strict "political correctness", all while they see no reason to conduct themselves by the same criteria.

And just out of curiosity, what made you pick the board posting name of "Renegade"?

Cheers!

Dallara

[big papa]

The real renegade...

[MooseR1100R]

My first experience on a cycle was a HD 883 Sportster. I knew immediately (a priori) there had to be something better. Nevertheless, I never begrudge one's purchase of a HD. Anyone who buys a HD these days, or Beemer for that matter, has made a major investment in the fine art of motorcycling. Better than anything on canvas in my opinion. Anyone who's pride is expressed in washing, polishing, admiring, washing, polishing, admiring, etc. is entitled to that limited engagement with the bike if they are satistified with the psyshic rewards.
As a group, we are riders. Nothing pains us more than seeing the Beemer sitting on the centerstand looking forlonely out the garage door. As the ole sayin' goes, "when you have a thoroughbred, let it run." And that is what we do best, let it run.
So, I'm packin' up for the Big Bend 2005. In the past I've stated here that the party does not begin until the HD guys show up. And I think it is a good thing a few will join us in Alpine.

[Capt. Blackadder]

renegade,

Don't worry about any bad vibes, just take 'em with a pinch of salt. Remember that opinions are like sphincters, everybody's got one... or words to that effect. We are a varied bunch, we ride what we like and we are who we are, for better or worse. You have three bikes, and whether you ride 'em or polish 'em, it's all the same to me. They're yours, to use as you please. For simply being a motorcyclist, I salute you.

As for Harleys, I'll say this: I've had as much fun on Harleys as any marque you care to mention. I've never owned one but rented several, for day trips with visiting friends and such. We would swap bikes on those trips and always have had boatloads of fun.

I remember one of those bikes in particular, a blue-and-white Fat Boy with a couple of Screaming Eagle goodies. Gorgeous, head-turning machine. Rode it from Phoenix to Tucson and back on a beautiful November day. Besides the looks of it and the glorious (but properly muffled) sound, what really struck me was what a glassy smooth ride it was. You could ride that bike all day at 85-90mph on the freeway in great comfort. All day. It was an awesome ride, and I can see myself owning a Fat Boy just like that some day. That, or a Midnight Black 883 Sportster with mag wheels, my other favorite H-D looker.

When ridden the way they are intended, Harleys provide a very satisfying experience, at least to me. Most of them are not sportbikes, but that should be painfully obvious just looking at them. They are for easy riding. You're just out there in the sunshine, taking it easy, rolling along, listening to the motor and watching the scenery change. On those rental bike day trips, I may not have looked like so many Harley riders, what with my full-face helmet and full protective gear, but dammit, I enjoyed it to the max. Motorcycles, including Harley-Davidson, is good.

[renegade]

Thanks for your replies......the passive/aggressive tone still turns me off and I don't think this forum is for me......

Something for those of you who can't stop bashing Harley......and those that ride them.....Harley Davidson sold over 300,000 units last year...can anyone tell me how many BMWs were sold??????? 15,000 in the US and how many of those were police bikes???..my point is simple....BMW is and always will be in the minority compared to Harley Davidson. That being said, there are certain percentages of our population that are anti social in their behaviour (ie don't interact well with others)....Those percentages are not effected by the machinery that they choose to operate. That is what is called myth......and perhaps perception....but not reality....
Are there morons on Harleys......sure........but morons also ride BMW, Honda, Suzuki, Yamaha, Ducati...you name it.....this notion that riding a BMW puts you in a class of safety minded riding.....puleeze....motorcycles are inherently unsafe....there is no way to make them safe......just ask your mother......

I had to laugh when someone wrote that HD are overpriced........the price of anything is what you buy it for less what you can sell it for......my 2004 RR is only 4 months old and has lost about 1/3 of it's value.....and going down.....my 04 Duece is over a year old, and worth about what I paid for it........now tell me which bike is overpriced?????

[yjleesvrr]

Renegade - if you're still reading this thread, there indeed are those of us here that own both BMWs and Harleys. Myself being one. Others have owned and enjoyed HD's in the past. I chose a Dyna Super Glide Sport because it has decent brakes compared to most motorcycles, not just Harleys. It's suspension compares similarly to most other conventional setups by other makes. It's handling is actually pretty good.

I also happened to ride my Harley 470 miles last night to New Jersey from Southwest VA, and even this is not my longest trip on it in a single day. My best is 510 miles on a Saturday a couple months ago within the state of Virginia. FYI, my longest trip in a single day is on my Roadster from my home to Orlando, which was 731 miles.

What gets many non-HD riders sore against HDs is that the majority of Harleyphiles are posers. I have friends who own Harleys that barely ride 500 miles in a year, let alone a day. When they ride, they put on a costume to make bystanders think they are hardcore bikers and even portray the bad-ass image. To top it all off, Harley-Davidson has performed one of the most effective marketing campaigns in history to market its bikes as something that will turn you into someone you're not as soon as you hop on and turn the key.

I bought my Dyna Glide Sport because it is a good motorcycle in its own right, and it has that unique feel and sound only Harleys have. It's not everybody's cup of tea, but then again as you pointed out neither are BMWs.

Last but not least, this community is full of people with opinions. If you're looking for lemmings to agree with everything you say, you're correct in that this is not the community for you. If you want to have an intelligent debate however, you should stick around. As long as no one makes it personal, I have no problems with somebody who absolutely hates any of my bikes as long as they share in my passion for riding.