renegade wrote:Something for those of you who can't stop bashing Harley......and those that ride them.....Harley Davidson sold over 300,000 units last year...can anyone tell me how many BMWs were sold??????? 15,000 in the US and how many of those were police bikes???
Britney Spears sells lots of records, but I wouldn't call her music 'good'.
I had to laugh when someone wrote that HD are overpriced........the price of anything is what you buy it for less what you can sell it for......my 2004 RR is only 4 months old and has lost about 1/3 of it's value.....and going down.....my 04 Duece is over a year old, and worth about what I paid for it........now tell me which bike is overpriced?????
Fair enough, although your duece probably cost about $16k new. It's all about how you value things. For most of the riders here performance, comfort, and ease maintenance are king. The duece only really embodies one of those traits. It's just a different set of traits that matter to you.
Most people here will admit the BMWs are somewhat over priced, and getting more so with each model. If we were really all about performance for value, we'd be riding Japanese bikes. The BMW offers reasonable performance with the advantage of being relatively low maintenance on a day-to-day basis. Don't get me started about valve adjustments and throttle body sync'ing though.
Your, "Harley-Davidson, made of tin... Ride it out, push it in..." made me smile. You hardly know anyone who knows that saying any more.
I recall it being on some Indian T shirts from the early 40's. Now I have one for you. How about this, "Even Jesus rode a Horex." Some place in my stuff I still have one of these shirts.
Boy, this one really opened a can of worms didn't it?
Outside of Australia, which is really the 51st state of America and where Harley riders act accordingly, I've always found the H-D crowd pretty much like normal bikers.
Yeah, they do spend a lot of time polishing and admiring their rides, but I can understand that -- as works of visual art it's pretty hard to beat a Harley, and there's something in the range that will appeal to just about everybody. If you like all things mechanical, you can definitely see the appeal in H-D's.
I know many (if not most) of the Harley crowd in Bangkok, and one thing that's always impressed me is just how much riding they do -- they have organised rides to the far corners of the country every couple of weeks, can always be relied upon for worthwhile charity causes, and seem to use their bikes as the focal point for a lot of cameraderie and good times. Same's true of the groups I've met in Malaysia, Singapore and Hong Kong.
So count me in with the group that counts us all as motorcyclists, regardless of the brand of bike(s) we ride.
I think the problem with H-D's is . . . what it is . . . what it's definitely not . . . and how it's perceived.
It's resale value is absolutely superb, even 20 years later. This totally mystifies me.
Because of it's powerful, lumpy, radical sound . . . . people think it's really powerful and radically tuned. It's neither.
H-D is all about the image of a tough guy able to control massive power and/or being part of the family of honor and it's generous, live free lifestyle . . . not about engine, braking or handling performance. People only need to see it or hear it to know there's a famous, expensive, highly desireable M/C there.
My beefs: It's crude, modernized, ancient, single carb (TB), wide angle 2 valve hemi-head engine type is made of sandcast Aluminum and massive Milwaukee Iron parts. You are paying for billet Aluminum and Titanium parts. It's frame and wheels not only make no attempt at light weight, they are by far the heaviest of the hundreds of bikes that I have changed the tires on. There's an almost complete lack of Stainless Steel or fine thread fasteners, a decent alternator or something more than basic instrumentation and decades old brake calipers. It's "Made in the USA" boast is quite hollow as the Aluminum wheels are Australian, the forks, CV carbs and instruments are from Japan. The brakes are dangerously inadequate, the power is lame-n-tame, the handling is scary and slothlike. That's the $20K plus Road King. The "high performance" Sporster is only a little better. The vibration often mimics some overpowered sexxtoy. (Not that I know what that is like). The buy-in price, for what you get (noted above) is stratospheric. Their biggest flaw is that it's the bike most numerous . . . and proudly parked, rear wheel to the curb, in front of every bar (pub), in every town, on all of the most beautiful riding days.
Maybe I should just ignore what and how it's made of, how it performs, what it costs - - - and just take up drinking and carousing, enjoy that marvelous sound, it's lazy relaxed cruising and solid gold resale value.
Maybe not.
Not insulting . . . just the truth as I see it. We need something like John Britten's V-Twin bike, made in the USA, for guys like me to be envious of it.
By H-D standards, my 1150R BMW should be $35,000.
If outright performance is what we're supposed to want, why do we ride anything but 600cc and 1000cc sportbikes from Japan? I fully appreciate what CycleRob and Dallara say, but I don't see the need to ride frenetically with every bike I've got. When I'm on my SV650 or R1150R, I usually find myself pulling a crazy maneuver or going over a 100 mph on the highway at least once during a long ride. My Harley allows me to ride at more automotive speeds and enjoy it (well, I invariably do close to if not more than the ton in my 325i sedan as well on the highway during a long trip). Fact is, my Harley is still faster than the vast majority of the cars on the road, and with dual disks up front, it's stopping power is about average compared to most bikes. With a more conventional fork rake and a wide handlebar, handling is good too.
My opinion is that motorcycling should be fun without always having to risk ones license or flirting with getting into an accident. There are times when I enjoy being on two wheels for nothing more than that. If not, I'm selling all three of my bikes, buying a GSX-R1000, and heading to the track every weekend.
Member #93, June 2002
'14 BMW R1200RT "Wethead"
'77 BMW R100/7 "Airhead"
Somehow I think you've missed it somewhere along the way.
Nobody ever said one has to ride "frenetically" every time they ride. Nobody ever said that performance is the only critieria a motorcycle should be judged by, or appreciated for.
CycleRob actually put most of my thoughts about H-D's better than I ever have. It's not just the performance issues with Harley's, but the entire idea that they are essentially pawning off an antiquated engineering disaster for an overinflated price and using nothing more than machismo marketing to pull it off. Doesn't matter that there are legions of lemmings wiling to swallow the hype and "lifestyle" BS about them... It's that those legions somehow think that Harley's should somehow be judged differently from any other bike and get defensive if anyone dares to criticize H-D machines.
Look at you here... You are making some of the same *excuses* for Harley's that have floated around for years. Whether it is because of your true love for the brand, or simply to justify the excessive price penalty of owning one in your own eyes is something only you can answer.
Riding any motorcycle is fun, period. It is far more fun than rolling down the street in a most cages, whether you are on a scooter or a Harley.
What's sad is that there are actually scooters that will outperform a Harley in most envelopes...
There is really no need for Harley's wheels to weigh what they do (or cost what Harley charges for them...), nor is there any need for them to use cheap fasteners at teh price the bikes go for. If you really take a Harley apart you are amazed at what sub-standard parts they use throughout, and it shocks you to think they charge what they do for those pieces. If you wrench on bikes it doesn't take you long to become appalled at how much some folks are being ripped off with all the Harley "mystique"...
Something tells me you would not accept driving a car that had sub-standard brakes, low quality fittings and fasteners, stone-age suspension components, wallowing handling, etc. but you could only buy at Ferrari prices... In other words, a car with worse performance, worse handling, worse brakes, worse components, etc. and was inherently more unsafe than a Ford Taurus, but that went for a price exceeding that of a Mercedes-Benz... Strictly in the name of style.
Sure, a BMW R-1150-R does not have the performance of even a 600cc Jap sportbike, but then the Beemer oilheads or hexheads are perhaps the best performing air-cooled twins currently available, and one certainly can't say they have lousy brakes, or sub-standard suspension systems, or crappy low-quality fasteners, or low-quality castings, etc.... and all for a price considerably more friendly than most H-D's.
I guess in the end it is which side of your brain you are letting decide how you spend your motorcycle dollar. For some style is *EVERYTHING*, while for others performance is the only criteria... Most of us fall somewhere in between, but I don't think any of us want something built on poor design and out of lousy componentry and that is perhaps not as safe as it could conceivably be...
Harley tries to spin an enticing web, using every Madison Avenue marketing trick and "image" promotional gimmick they can muster, much like Detroit did (and in many ways continue to do...). In the end this leads to the dismantling of an industry. Detroit's big automakers are in grave trouble now because they did what Harley is doing for far too long, and now it may be too late to actually catch up and recover from the damage of that mindset. For years they simply hung some new chrome or sheetmetal on antiquated designs and told us they were all great and wonderful, and while they did so foreign makers invested in R&D, more modern and efficient designs, better manufacturing capability, lower weight, etc. Suddenly foreign cars were actually much better under the sheetmetal, and now Detroit is struggling to catch up...
Harley is following the same path, and sooner or later it will catch up to them, too. You can follow 'em, as that is your choice, but I imagine one day you will wonder why you did...
(BTW, don't forget I am a car dealer who sells three lines of cars - two from Detroit based companies, and one that is Jap-based... And what I am saying here is nothing I haven't repeatedly told my dealer reps, etc.)
Dallara - I may be missing your point, but I think you are missing mine as well. Buying a Harley is like buying a '57 Chevy brand new and without the mechanical problems the original cars had. It's the same reason many baby boomers are hearkening back to the days of their youth by buying Triumph Bonnevilles. The new Bonnies have much of the same feel without the oil leaks. You can't tell me anyone buys a Bonny for its performance these days when a SV650 will smoke it for hundreds less.
Some people erroneously think Harleys are still unreliable. That has not been true for over a decade now. Given that they farm out (as has been pointed out) the electronics to Japan, Harleys are about as reliable as any these days. And guess what? I haven't had to replace the fuel clamps on my Harley or apply locktite to any screws (for the windshield mounts) the way I've done on my BMW. I'm certainly not knocking my Roadster - 34k miles in just over 3 years through 12 states without a breakdown is marvelous.
My Dyna Glide Sport cost $15.8k, which is smack dab in the middle of what BMW's go for. I paid MSRP by the way. The $10k I paid for my non-ABS Roadster is an anomaly for boxer-engined bikes. I agree that Harley makes a lot of insipidly slow bikes and the good handling, good stopping bikes are in the minority of their lineup. For instance, I steered away from buying a Softail because the suspension setup on these bikes play second fiddle to style. The bikes I would buy from Harley are the Sportsters, Dynas, and the Porsche-designed engined Rod series.
I'd also like to point out that motorcycling is not a necessity. Well, to people like me and you who are absolutely gaga over riding it seems like it. But if I was forced to give up either driving a car or riding a motorcycle, I'd have to give up motorcycling for the sake of life's practicality. I say this to argue against your comparing motorcycles to cars. Aesthetics figure much more highly in motorcycles than automobiles. You don't think I have a Toyota Sienna because of its road performance, do you? I want a variety for my motorcycling buck. Some days, I want to get on my SV650 and hammer it in the mountains after a long stressful week at work. At other times, I want to go for a nice, sanely-paced ride over these same roads and look at the scenery more on the Harley. Sometimes, I get up in the morning on a Saturday and get a bug up my butt to do ride several hundred miles that weekend so I'll toss my clothes and supplies into the Roadster's system cases and go visit another state. It's this variety I enjoy.
Finally, do understand that BMW remains my favorite brand of bike. My next two purchases will most likely be the GS and the RT over the next several years. But that doesn't mean BMW is the end-all and be-all of motorcycling for me.
Member #93, June 2002
'14 BMW R1200RT "Wethead"
'77 BMW R100/7 "Airhead"
I owned a 2005 Sportster 1200R for exactly 5 weeks. Everything I read about it said how much of an improvement it was over the solid-mount Sportys. It was the most disappointing major purchase I have ever made.
I don't ride hard, I enjoy an average pace ride, and commute to work.
Thought I would give Harley a chance. They sure sell a lot of bikes!
The Sportster LOOKED great and always started on the first touch of the button. But it's all down hill from there:
- No storage whatsoever - seat is SCREWED to the bike. (non-locking saddlebags a $300 add-on)
- Sloppy carburetion, particularly when cold. 10 minutes to come off choke on a 60-degree day. Leave the choke on too long, and the plugs foul.
- Frighteningly weak front brakes, despite the double-disk (ONLY on the R-model, no less!)
- Mirrors shake loose and spin around like pinwheels after a couple hundred miles (despite copious lock-tight)
Don't adjust them while riding!!!
- No locking gas cap ($35 add-on)
- Rearview mirrors only show elbows (proper mirrors $50 add-on)
- No gas gauge or low fuel light (bike died on me twice with no warning - not so much as a sputter, restarted on reserve, but both times I was in traffic!!) Miserable 3.3 gallon tank good for 120 miles.
- No tools come with the bike - no way to adjust rear shocks without a spanner! ($50 add-on toolkit, but nowhere to store it!) Bike bottomed out HARD with a passenger aboard.
- No overheat warning light on air-cooled bike. (temp gauge that replaces oil dipstick a $35 add-on that you can't see while riding)
- Seat hard as a rock, good for maybe 50 miles. (perhaps a universal complaint, but I'm OK with the RR's seat for 100 miles)
I could go on and on, but I think you get the idea. This was the most incomplete $9000 motorcycle I could have ever imagined. The 1983 Kawasaki KZ750 that I bought for $1500 as my first bike in 1998 was every bit the Sportster's equal in every way except fit and finish. My 2000 Kawasaki ZR-7 was superior to the Sportster in every way, period, for 1/2 the money, and I was missing it badly by the end of the second miserable tank of fuel on the Sportster.
If you actually enjoy motorcycle riding, avoid the Sportster.
... always interesting. This time around, I'll add some observations:
(1) Like Pat always says, Riding is Good.
(2) I bought an H-D/Buell XB which now serves as my Fun Bike. Unlike the majority of H-D bikes past & present, the Buell stops+turns+goes pretty effectively, in spite of its v-twin, air-cooled farm tractor engine, first incorporated into Harley bikes in 1909. At least there's no valve train fiddling (hydraulic lifters), mileage is pretty good (better than my Roadster), and belt drive is mindlessly simple. The Buell cost too much for what it is, but I like it anyway.
(3) My brother bought himself an FLH Road King for a big road trip a few years ago, and we spent an afternoon buying & installing a Genuine Motor Accessories seat back. The installation provided a close-up inspection of how current day H-Ds are built... and I wasn't impressed: sheet steel and Home Depot hardware. They do chrome well, though. I rode the FLH - plush, comfortable, but disturbingly disconnected from the road/suspension/drivetrain feedback that's been fundamental to my motorcycling experience. Floorboards & rocker shifting scared me silly.
(4) The Mrs. & I rode our BMW Roadsters to Hollister this summer to witness an authentic H-D fest. Interesting. Glad we got that out of the way!
(5) Based on experience to date, there are plenty of snotty people in the H-D ranks, AND the squid squad, AND the BMW MOA. I've probably met more friendly riders with H-D origins than other groups, though Gold Wing folks might be the friendliest.
A lot of interesting things have been said in this post. What a great collection of folks we have on this board. I like the diverse opinions. I love the great technical knowledge that many of you offer up so freely. Thanks for sharing it with us. Thats the power of this board.
Renegade was quite successful in drawing many of you into the HD argurment. His motives were not honorable. He was desceptive in his tactics and we should be glad that he is gone. His point is meaningless, if there was one. He was not looking for help as his subject line stated. I don't know how long he's been around the board but I hope he got something out of it because he didn't add anything to it.
I ride my BMWs because I enjoy these machines. I wear all the gear because I don't like getting hurt when things go wrong. I commute on my bikes and ride at other times usually only with my wife, sometimes I'll hook with other riders but generally not. Riding is a personal thing and I could care less what other people think of me or my bike. I love going to my local dealer where I bought my bike. It is a Harley dealer that also sells many other brands. I actually had a great time there a few weeks ago when they had a HOG rally. A great group of guys and gals who get together quite a bit for charity reasons. How these guys and ladies customize their bikes is fascinating. I think their bikes look great. And I generally like the people that ride Harley's. I think I've met some nice BMW riders there too.
Wow, out of the office for the day and this thread went to four pages!
I confess to not have read every word of every post. I will just add these comments:
- I accept Harley riders much more than they accept me usually. Same for waving!
- some of my best friends ride Harleys. We just don't ride together. They go slow, wear the "uniform" and can't wait to get to a non-helmet law state to shed the lids. All middle-aged guys with money buying "butt jewelry".
- I find this forum very welcoming to folks of all bike persuasions. Some who owned the R and moved on and some who own multiple bikes.
- I do not feel the smallest requirement to defend the fine folks on this board from a troll with 4 posts. I have met at least 40 of you guys and it is a good group and very accepting of all who venture in here. As opposed to say, Advrider.com!
'02 in black - the real BMW color! (Now gone to a new home)
Vann - Lifer No. 295
[quote="boxermania"]Having the dreaded engineering background and the analytical mind that goes with it, I can't help but technically disect the HD offerings......basically an anticuated design, just like the BMW boxers, with a sprinkling of recent technology here and there.
It's "antiquated" and, from merriam-webster...
irregardless:
in dialectal American speech in the early 20th century. Its fairly
widespread use in speech called it to the attention of usage
commentators as early as 1927. The most frequently repeated remark
about it is that "there is no such word." There is such a word,
however. It is still used primarily in speech, although it can be found
from time to time in edited prose. Its reputation has not risen over
the years, and it is still a long way from general acceptance. Use regardless instead.
boxermania wrote:Having the dreaded engineering background and the analytical mind that goes with it, I can't help but technically disect the HD offerings......basically an anticuated design, just like the BMW boxers, with a sprinkling of recent technology here and there.
It's "antiquated" and, from merriam-webster...
irregardless:
in dialectal American speech in the early 20th century. Its fairly
widespread use in speech called it to the attention of usage
commentators as early as 1927. The most frequently repeated remark
about it is that "there is no such word." There is such a word,
however. It is still used primarily in speech, although it can be found
from time to time in edited prose. Its reputation has not risen over
the years, and it is still a long way from general acceptance. Use regardless instead.
Bill -
What's your issue? Boxermania made a typo and your cissy little style manual doesn't agree with his useage. I just don't get the point of flaming someone on a motorcycle board for a typo. If you want to do that, go over to one of the squid boards (GSXR, R1) where many of the posters appear to be elementary school dropouts.
Let's stick to the real issue here - Harley-Davidson makes cr*ppy motorcycles.
Last edited by BobFV1 on Thu Oct 20, 2005 9:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Doh, bob:
The point was, don't tell us you're an engineer and say so in such an innaccurate format. I LOVE all Motorcycles. Just don't Moider the Queens English. Bill C. "03 BMW R1150 R(BLACK), '04 Suzuki DL 650, '85 Honda Shadow VT700C. WFC. I Love You All.
wncbmw sums it up for me, " I accept Harley riders much more than they accept me usually. Same for waving!
- some of my best friends ride Harleys. We just don't ride together. They go slow, wear the "uniform" and can't wait to get to a non-helmet law state to shed the lids. All middle-aged guys with money buying "butt jewelry".
I did go for a ride with a friend of my mine yesterday, me on my "R" and him and his wife on an "Ultra Glide" It was a slow relaxing ride, looking at the fall color, and we did have a great time. Here are a couple of pics of your typical "badboy" harley rider, (could be his first bike) I got these from another site, so I know nothing about them. Den
Right up front, I'll apologize for my statement. It is not meant to infurate anyone. It's just my opinion....nothing more, nothing less.
It is my opinion that most of the slams towards harly riders come from people that are fed up with the "if you don't ride a harley, you ain't poo" attitude. Additionally, let's look at the image that harley and the other big "V" twin type bikes seem to want to promote....let's ride down to a bar, drink some beer and ride to the next bar! Woo HOO.....Let's be rowdy and intimidate anyone who isn't riding a harley! Woo HOO! I have some long time friends that ride harleys. They are good people, have professional jobs and pay their taxes. But when the weekend comes and they get on the harleys, it's hells angels time. They ride with their dew rags, chaps and fringed vests and tell me what a WUSS I am for wearing a full face helmet, mesh jacket with protective armor, draggin jeans and boots. I can remember it was not too many years ago that if a guy rode to a rally on a "rice burner", he might get the poo kicked out of him and his bike thrown on the bonfire.
I personally believe that bikes are great fun and good times are to be had. The majority of people that ride, harleys or otherwise are good folks. But let's face it, and be honest, look at the image that harley/orange county chopper/west coast choppers promote. Have you ever been to a BMW rally and seen somone take their brand new $20K bike, nose it to the wall and try to burn the rear tire off it? And they wonder why somone thinks they are knuckle heads? Don't get me wrong, there are just as many idiots on all the other brands. It just seems to me that a lot of "harley riders" want to flaunt their stupidity and then whine about it when they get called a knucklehead.
Sorry, I'm sure that's not what you wanted to hear, but I just had to get it off my chest.
Dan;
No need to apologize for that. You make a good point. Some Harley riders make a bad impression. Many others try to emulate the bad boy image to try and look cool, but just end up perpetuating the image that the knuckleheads make. Harley-Davidson exploits the fact that lots and lots of people will spend lots and lots of money to be part of that image.
To summarize, the Harley rider image might make individuals feel ccool and provide some comradery, but the group image carrys a lot of negative baggage.
The riders' attitude and image has absoultely nothing to do with the machine itself. I find it silly to criticize a machine because of the image of it's users.
I simply love anything mechanical. I really love mechanical devices that I can interact with. Every motorcycle fits that bill to some extent. Harley Davidson makes a very interactive machine since they are easy to work on, have thousands of modifications available, and are capable of real world HP/speed performance if you are willing to pay the money and do the work.
The price is high for what I consider to be a platform for customization. But the expandability of HD equipment far exceeeds any other manufacturer's bike on the market for the last 30 years. What other brand of bike has anywhere near the amount of accessories? You have hundreds of aftermarket engine components, even replica engines, transmission, exhaust, suspension, frame, wheels, brakes, bars, seats and lights. Not to mention the thousands of cosmetic parts.
How many BMW riders ride stock bikes? How many replace the exhaust and explore methods to get more power? How many would buy and install serious engine mods if they were available? How many put "pretty" items on their bike?
Personally, I don't like cruisers and will probably never own a Harley for that reason. I've ridden dozens of Harleys over my 30 year riding career and honestly find the same deficiencies that many have complained about in this and oither threads. Other than pure sports handling, all of these things can be overcome with aftermarket products. If someone else gets pleasure from owning and riding a different motorcycle that fits my taste, who am I to criticize there choice and call it crap?
Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please.
), lifestyle ( 
