BMW R1200GS Adventure - ABS or non-ABS?

[jonothan]

As you guys (and gals) might know from previous postings, I have an R1200GS Adventure on order, to be delivered early next year. The dealer called me today to ask if I knew what spec I wanted, having given me the full specification list and a photocopy of the UK dealer release notes.

The question is this. Do I opt for ABS or not? Now, I know that there has been a load posted on this subject already, but I wondered what you guys think.

I know that I'll want the hard metal luggage/pannier system cases, and the trip computer and the anti-theft alarm. I'll be going for the white indicators lenses and heated grips too.

But the ABS? Hmm. Not sure about that.

Thanks

J

[DJ Downunder]

Deffenatly....absolutly......you gotta be kidding me.........NOT!...

That's my thoughts...

DJ

[BobFV1]

Jonothan -

Oh boy! We will get as many opinions on this as we will respondents!

Depends on your riding style, I guess. I have the fully integrated ABS on my RT and I really like it. I ride it on the highway and I brake exactly the same as I would with my non-ABS sport bikes. I have never felt the ABS kick in (including at a track day!), but I like knowing it is there. I also like the ability to be "lazy" on the controls from time to time and knowing that the "little German man" in the computer is thinking about which brake to apply.

If I were going to ride a GS off the tarmac for any appreciable amount of time (30 percent or more off the tarmac) I think I would consider no ABS - but if your GS is mainly a road (motorway) warrior I think I would get the ABS.

[collyers]

You can always turn it off, right? But if you DON'T get it, you can never turn it on. Still, your call. If you ride 50% or more on the street, the cost of the ABS MORE than pays for itself the first time you don't lowside or lose the front end because your tires are greasy from just coming off dirt, etc etc.

[massive_attack]

On my 1200GS you can turn the ABS off for off roading (assume it is the same on the Adv) Simply put ABS can save your life. You will hear a lot from riders who say they have highly skilled braking techniques and don't need it. Well lets hope those skills are never negated by being tired, cold, wet and that they are never, ever, taken by surprise by some dumb cage driver. ABS wont always stop you faster, on bumpy surfaces it can take longer (in skilled hands) to stop than a non-ABS but when you add all the other factors in to possible road situations it will let you brake hard and not lock up your front. Don't be put off by the 'nanny safety' argument not having ABS does not make you any more manly, I know boys who are fast, awesome riders and they have ABS. In the wet in winter you will be glad to know it is there.

[BobFV1]

On my 1200GS you can turn the ABS off for off roading (assume it is the same on the Adv) Simply put ABS can save your life. You will hear a lot from riders who say they have highly skilled braking techniques and don't need it. Well lets hope those skills are never negated by being tired, cold, wet and that they are never, ever, taken by surprise by some dumb cage driver. ABS wont always stop you faster, on bumpy surfaces it can take longer (in skilled hands) to stop than a non-ABS but when you add all the other factors in to possible road situations it will let you brake hard and not lock up your front. Don't be put off by the 'nanny safety' argument not having ABS does not make you any more manly, I know boys who are fast, awesome riders and they have ABS. In the wet in winter you will be glad to know it is there.

Ohh - didn't know you could turn it on and off. Sounds like a no-brainer: get it!

[dallara]

Hold the phone, Folks...

Let's make one thing abudantly clear here...

You can turn off the *ABS* part of the system, but you cannot turn off the *SERVO-ASSISTED* part of the system, which is where the drawback lies.

There is nothing inherently wrong with an *anti-lock braking system*, provided it is fast enough to read its sensors accurately, senses impending lock-up (rate of change of wheel rotation) rather than simply waiting for a wheel to stop rolling and then releasing pressure, and is completely transparent to the rider...

However, BMW's *SERVO-ASSISTED* system only scores in one of those areas - it senses rate of change. Compared to most modern day ABS systems it is *VERY* slow in reading its sensors - hence the slight "delay" in braking action some riders complain about. It also has more trouble with bumps than other makers' ABS system, which is also indicative of slow processing. It is in no way transparent to the rider, and makes itself known any number of ways... Lack of braking "feel" at the lever and pedal, whirs and whines all the time, pressuring back at the fingertips during long stops, becoming discumbooberated over bumps and irregular pavement, etc....

For a more realistic assessment, Jonothan, you might want to look up one of our members here - Bones - who has had both - an ABS equipped bike and now his non-ABS equipped R-1200-GS. He sold his ABS equipped BMW *BECAUSE* of the servo-assist and what it did to screwing up braking feel, and bought an R-1200-GS *BECAUSE* he could get it without BMW servo-assisted ABS system. Drop him a PM and ask him about the differences and much more *SECURE* he feels now that he has done away with BMW's ABS system. He's a nice guy and you will get honest, well thought out, and definitive answers.

IMHO, tell them you do not want BMW's overly complex, outrageously expensive, costly to maintain and repair, noisy, ill-feeling, over-hyped, less effective than others, over-promoted, mythically wonderful servo-assisted ABS system... The money you save alone in opting out of the ABS will pay for all your other accessories and then some, and you won't ever have to wonder about an ABS or servo failure, weird ABS warning lights, having no brakes to speak of when the key is off, an ABS system that if it fails leaves you with *GREATLY* reduced braking power, will cost you an arm and a leg if it fails outside of the warranty period, etc.

Some of our biggest BMW ABS proponents on this board don't use the brakes hard enough to ever actuate the ABS, or lock a wheel even if they didn't have ABS, and no offense, but those aren't the folks you should be seeking advice from.

By definition almost, BMW's servo-assisted system precludes learning and practicing proper braking techniques, and that of itself is a *BAD* thing. It also tends to lull some riders into a false sense of security, those thinking that the ABS will somehow "save them"... That's a myth. It won't. If you don't already know how to use the brakes correctly, Beemer's servo-assisted ABS won't save a thing... Why? Because those folks won't be pulling on the front lever hard enough anyway to keep from hitting a sudden target.

Pass on the BMW ABS system, and if you don't already know proper braking techniques, learn 'em and practice them hard and often.

One funny thing to note... It is rare, in my experience, that I see a BMW rider with BMW ABS whose front brake rotors are the deep, cobalt-blue-black that is the sign of someone who really *KNOWS* how to use his brakes... I actually saw my first servo-equipped BMW this past weekend in Big Bend that did (Dean's R-1200-ST), and that's in over 35 years of riding. Dark discoloration of the front brake rotors is indicative of someone who uses the front brakes *HARD*, right to lock-up, as the discoloration is produced by excessive heat.

As I said, isn't it funny that most people who champion BMW's ABS system don't even use the front brakes hard enough to know the difference?

Okay, now that I have made a bunch of people mad again, simply by being frank and honest... Back to your regularly scheduled programming...

Cheers!

Dallara

[yjleesvrr]

ABS should be switched off for trail use where you actually get more traction sliding the rear tire against gravel and loose dirt as opposed to trying to maintain a rolling wheel. That is why the GS - even the old 1150cc versions, had the ABS switch feature.

[The Velvet Monkey]

As mentioned by Dallara, the servo-assist does provide an initially unusual senation. It took me some time to get used to, but now I like my ABS set-up, particularly since I've had an occasion where ABS clearly saved my skin during a wet surface emergency brake.

Let's face it, ABS is a trade-off. You need to decide if the safety (when used correctly) feature is worth the indiosycracies of servo-assist, the added mechanical complications to your machine, and the added cost. For me, I decided that it was and I haven't been unhappy with my choice.

[Guest]

Some people are happy with the SERVO-ASSISTED* system, some people are not. There are ABS failures but there are many more ABS bikes that work just fine. The idea that you need to be a HARD braking rider to need ABS is nonsense. The fact that you do not generally brake hard means you will benefit more from ABS when you do need to. Not every one has a brake hard, ride hard style so will not have the experience of such braking. You don’t have to brake that hard to lock a wheel in the wet. Asking advice from one person who changed his bike because he hated ABS does not give you the over view. I would listen to what every one says and then make up my mind.

[greer]

Jonothan,

Read rivi777's "KR: Why am I slower on a faster more powerful bike". He addresses a particular issue with the Servo brakes and I replied that I have a buddy with an Adventure who has experienced the same thing.

Sarah

[Deans BMW]

EVERYBODY, listen carefully......................................

The R1200GS and ADVENTURE have ABS brakes that can be switched off. I wish that my ST would have the same option, I like the ABS most of the time, however when playing ultra GO-FAST you want your ABS switched off, I have experienced the same problem as Rich has experienced on choppy roads in Northern Californis when racing and passing a K1200S on Hwy 36....I still beat him though

I have no quarrels with the servo assistance on the other hand.

[Optimus Prime]

I agree (I think) with Dallara

Modern ABS...
servo-assist...

Since BMW's hog-tied them together, it's up to you.

However, BMW's *SERVO-ASSISTED* system only scores in one of those areas - it senses rate of change. Compared to most modern day ABS systems it is *VERY* slow in reading its sensors - hence the slight "delay" in braking action some riders complain about. It also has more trouble with bumps than other makers' ABS system, which is also indicative of slow processing. It is in no way transparent to the rider, and makes itself known any number of ways... Lack of braking "feel" at the lever and pedal, whirs and whines all the time, pressuring back at the fingertips during long stops, becoming discumbooberated over bumps and irregular pavement, etc....

Not to get too technical, but you're a wee bit off. The BMW's ABS system is good at quickly reading it's sensors. However, the servo-assist system is very, very slow (respectively) reacting to the sensor readings.

[dallara]

Optimus Prime said:

Not to get too technical, but you're a wee bit off. The BMW's ABS system is good at quickly reading it's sensors. However, the servo-assist system is very, very slow (respectively) reacting to the sensor readings.

I'm sure you are right, Optimus, as that is your field of expertise.

All I know, from riding 'em, is that BMW's system is *S-L-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-W* to react and slow on modulation compared to other motorcycle ABS systems I have sampled. To me it is so bad it derails you from doing proper braking, primarily because it makes you concentrate on it during manuevers where you shouldn't have to be thinking about it at all... And that is one of its major drawbacks.

I have ridden with Beemer's servo-assist in both the wet and the dry, and on dusty pavement, etc.... and I have ridden without it... I have also ridden with other brand's ABS systems under such varying conditions... IMHO, the BMW servo-assisted ABS system presents more problems during all types of braking than it solves, and is still an answer to a question nobody asked... And I think you and I are in agreement on that particularly point.

Folks, Optimus Prime's vocation is ABS systems, so you might want to pay close attention to what he is saying here. He and I have debated the issues about ABS systems long and hard, and though we differ on many points, we seem to find common ground on the servo issue.

For me, I can take ABS, in and of itself, or leave it... My riding experiences, racing, etc. have given me the confidence I feel necessary to operate quite nicely without ABS assistance. That's no brag, just an observation of spending lots of years riding and racing without it.

However, I cannot take BMW's servo-assisted system, and won't. It creates more problems than it solves, and that is a very real problem. Putting on blinders and buying into BMW's ad-hype about it is, IMHO, a serious mistake... One that could cost you dearly at an inopportune moment.

Given the choice, I would most definitely opt out of getting BMW's servo-assisted system - plain and simple. If you ride long enough, and practice proper technique enough, you will arrive at the same conclusion, IMHO. And the saddest part of BMW's system is that if you *DO* have it, it is virtually *IMPOSSIBLE* to practice proper braking technique and skills, because it removes all the necessary "feel" to allow you to learn them.

Just my two ducats... YMMV.

Cheers!

Dallara

[socalrob]

Dallara (thats my edit, can't get that spelling right) - Good grief, you mean I now not only have to sand paper off my chicken stripes, I also have to take a torch to my front rotor?

Its might be too much work to look fast.

I like your thinking. I do practice what I consider hard braking, but looking back, while I hear the ABS cycling on rear wheel "lockup", I don't think I've ever caused the ABS to cycle on the front wheel (when on dry clean pavement, I have in the dirt). I've always thought that the ABS allows me to better practice hard braking in that the downside (literally) should be less than without ABS. Will have to try harder to learn the brakes potential.

BTW, you can shut off the servo system, just turn the key. Of course it makes going up hill a bit harder.

Jonothon - that new Adventure looks pretty cool in an SUV sort of way. I'll definately be looking at it. My big question is how is the weight compared to the old Adventure 1150? Sure would be nice to have the big gas tank. I would hope that an after market company would offer a lower gear. IMHO, with a 6 speed bike that might go in the dirt, you would want first gear to very low, 2nd gear almost like a normal first gear. But maybe the boxer twin has enough torque you don't need it that low. Looks to be a big discussion at AdvRider. You can always hope.

Dean - for a rider (I won't say average Dalera, as who knows what that is) that wants to keep their license (taking things a bit slower these days), commutes in traffic on a daily basis, has never raced, figures 7/10ths riding on the street is a good point to aim for, would you recommend ABS or not for the next bike?

I still like yuur ST, even if shes not housebroken.

[Deans BMW]

Dallara, now don't get mad, SoCal, for the rider that you describe, I would recomend ABS

Dean - for a rider (I won't say average Dalera, as who knows what that is) that wants to keep their license (taking things a bit slower these days), commutes in traffic on a daily basis, has never raced, figures 7/10ths riding on the street is a good point to aim for, would you recommend ABS or not for the next bike?

[rdsmith3]

Dallara, now don't get mad, SoCal, for the rider that you describe, I would recomend ABS

Dean - for a rider (I won't say average Dalera, as who knows what that is) that wants to keep their license (taking things a bit slower these days), commutes in traffic on a daily basis, has never raced, figures 7/10ths riding on the street is a good point to aim for, would you recommend ABS or not for the next bike?

That description fits me pretty well. I believe ABS was the right choice for me.

I can understand Dallara's dissatisfaction with the BMW implementation of servo braking, but I do not have his racing experience.

[dallara]

SocalRob...

Who said:

Good grief, you mean I now not only have to sand paper off my chicken stripes, I also have to take a torch to my front rotor?

Its might be too much work to look fast.

Now *THAT'S* funny!!!

Love it, Rob!

Seriously, though... regarding one thing you said:

I've always thought that the ABS allows me to better practice hard braking in that the downside (literally) should be less than without ABS.

Therein lies the rub... For a rider to truly learn to actually sense impending "lock-up" and modulate the brakes accordingly, he needs to know what it "feels" like as the wheel approaches "lock-up"... When we used to teach riding schools, and regularly in MX schools, what locking the front wheel felt like... We would demonstrate that you could bring the front tire to *HOWLING*, even on *DIRT*, without locking it up. But what's more interesting is just how much the front tire will "communicate" with you through that front brake lever... Problem is, with BMW's servo-assist that "communication" is *ELIMINATED* completely.

Sure, you can just ham-fist the lever and try and let the computer do the work, but something very, very important is lost...

Trail-braking to the apex, or having to use the brakes mid-corner, are a good example... Without the proper front tire "feedback" and "communication" through the lever it is impossible to judge what you can get away with when using BMW's servo-assist... Whereas with a conventional braking system (or an ABS system that doesn't compromise braking "feel") you can fool with that "edge" with the deftness of a surgeon.

To me, BMW servo-assisted system is like trying to ride a motorcycle via remote control... (and when using the brakes on a servo-assisted BMW, that is essentially what is happening, since the rider has no direct connection with the brake calipers...). It can be done, but it cannot be done as precisely or as accurately. Add to this the requisite "delays" in the system, and how they compound the built in "delays" in reaction time of a human being... i.e. You see something and decide you need to brake, which takes about a quarter of a second - you apply the brake and the Beemer servo system takes another bite of time to spool up and and actually apply pressure at the caliper... Then you decide you need to release a bit of brake, so you have another quarter-second letting off the lever, while the Beemer system keeps applying pressure for an instant, even *AFTER* you have backed off the lever, simply because of the reaction time of the processors, pump, and pressure regulators... and so on and so forth... Everything delaying what actually should be happening.

I could write volumes on the how's and why's of the various issues surrounding BMW's servo-assist, but some folks think I already pump out too much... I'm not sorry for that, primarily because I believe too many are "taken in" by BMW's grandiose claims about the wonders of their servo-assisted system, and all without knowing *ALL* the facts.

However, there is one absolutely true fact that remains, regardless of what you read or what you believe...

*NO* other motorcycle manufacturer has seen any advantage to a servo-pump-assisted braking system on a motorcycle... Not one.

Many see the advantages of an ABS system (without pump assist), and produce accordingly. Does anyone *REALLY* think that BMW is that much superior in engineering expertise that they know more about braking systems than *ALL* the other motorcycle manufacturers in the world?

Are companies like Honda, Yamaha, Kawasaki, Suzuki, KTM, Ducati, Aprilia, etc. really all so much more *STUPID* than BMW when it comes to brakes... Despite these other companies race successes, sales volume successes, and other engineering accomplishments?

One good case in point is Honda... Who has seen fit to spend development dollars (and Honda's research and development budget *FAR* eclipses BMW's...) on producing a motorcycle air-bag rather than go down the ridiculous rabbit-trail of servo-pump-assisted braking. Like it or not, Honda's motorcycle airbag has far, far reaching ramifications, and I predict that within 10-15 years close to half or more of the motorcycles sold in the world will have some sort of airbag system, whereas BMW servo-pump-assisted brakes will remain an answer to question no one is asking...

Believe the hype if you wish, but think it through...

Just my eighteen cents...

Cheers!

Dallara

[Bones]

My opinion re this subject is what Dallara said in his first post in this thread. He and I have had a lot of "discussion" about this. Indeed, the only reason I got rid of my 1150R....the ONLY reason was the SERVO (not the ABS).

I have ridden the new version on the GS and the ST I test rode. Better than the last version, but not good enough feel for me.

This is just my opinion, that is all: I won't buy a BMW with servo assist. So I ordered the non servo non abs version of the GS with spoke wheels. I LOVE this bike. I mean LOVE, baby!

Bones

[jonothan]

Sarah, I'd read Rivi777's thread and yes, it was helpful but wanted opinions really based on my decision of buying this particular GS.

Will I off-road it? Well, maybe, maybe not, it really depends on how experienced I become when I start touring seriously, and how far afield we go. If I'm brutally honest, I'm also buying the bike for both the looks and the kudos associated with the machine, as well as it's phenomenal ability.

I must say that I'm shying away from spending £750 on a system that is questionable in the way it feels to the rider from a safety point of view. The bottom line is, from reading the helpful and informative replies, that I need to try a BMW with ABS and see if I like it and if it suits me.

Thanks everyone for all your help. You blow me away, because you are an awesome resource of experience, knowledge and wisdom. Thanks!

J