The new R1200S

[dallara]

Dean "Grandpa Hoon" said (about one of the versions of the new R-1200-S being a "999 Beater):

I'm told that this is truly one of the versions.

But... But... But, Dean... I thought *YOUR* already was a Ducati 999 Beater!

I think BMW is going to have to go a long, loooooooooooooong way for any R-1200-S to actually be any sort of "999 Beater", even with a near 200 cc displacement advantage...

I can remember when BMW was saying the K-1200-S was going to be a "Hayabusa Beater", too... And that didn't happen! Not even close...

Cheers!

Dallara

[ofrogg]

Still a photoshop in my book. Look at the detail in the small pic at this thread:

http://www.r1150r.org/board/viewtopic.php?t=4352

They're not from the same bike.

Check this out.



The view in your link is shown above tilted to what I view is a more "kickstand" based orientation... Then I've labeled different points that I believe correspond to each other. granted, i lost some resolution in the yellow bike, but I do believe they're the same bike.

[DJ Downunder]

The 999 is one of the nicest bikes around...my friend has a 999R..hoolie-doolie it's nice....and what a chick magnet..........how could BMW beat that?..

DJ

[socalrob]

Funny how women riders don't seem able to keep their jackets on properly. Maybe its the more rounded shoulders. I'll have to ask the wife.

[fnfalman]

I doubt that the R1200S will be a 999 beater. It would be really nice if it were to approach 80% of the 999's ability.

Hopefully the rumor is true about the 125-hp and weight of around less than 450-lbs. 125-hp means around 105 at the rear wheel. That shaft drives ususally sucks up around 20-hp. But 105 at the rear with a wet weight of around 450-lbs wouldn't be bad. It would be very sporty. More importantly, what's the torque curve is like?

[Deans BMW]

fnfalman, don't be so quick to criticize, My ST now has about 104 RWHP with a full Remus on a very conservative dyno, magazines have recorded any where from 100 to 104 RWHP depending on the dyno on box stock R1200RT/ST's. My ST when new before break in and box stock recorded 98.5 RWHP. This is with an engine that BMW says has 110 HP. The upcomming R1200S with some 120 to 130 HP per BMW should put out some 110 to 120 RWHP stock.

Ask Dallara what happened when I realized that a beautiful red 999 passed me at the Big Bend ride when on my ho hum ST.

[Deans BMW]

Holy Cow, I just this minute recieved word by phone that the new R1200S might be in the 130 to 135 HP range, be still my heart, I do know that the red line will be at 9,000 ................or above. Looks like a RWHP in the 120's just might be possible.

[fnfalman]

I'm not criticizing anything but it had been shown repeatedly that the drive shaft usually sucks up around 20-hp. It would be very nice if the R1200S can put out around 110 or 115 at the rear wheel. Add an exhaust system, maybe a Power Commander, high compression pistons and other hot rod parts and she'll be sweet. The most important thing right now is the weight. How heavy is it? If the weight saving is indicative of the rest of the line (i.e. 50-70 lbs depending on which model), then it should weight around 450-lbs wet, and that would be very, very, very nice.

Nonetheless it's not going to be a 999-beater. Maybe a Multistrada beater but not a 999-beater. Like I said, it would be nice if it can approach 80% of the 999's capability.

As far as Dean passing a Duck in the twisties, that's ain't no big deal. There are plenty of squids out there. I can easily outrun the typical rice rocket riders in the twisties on my Rockster and those things are more potent than any Ducati.

But in the hands of an good rider, that Duck or any of those crotch rocket will murder a Beemer, whether be it a Boxer Cup Replika or a K-superbike.

Would I like for BMW to design and manufacture a full-on crotch rocket? Not really, because in order to do that they have to make the bike like the rest of the other companies: conventional fork setup, conventional engine setup, etc. Then I might as well buy me a Ducati, an Aprilia or any of the rice burners.

[Bry]

Dean "Grandpa Hoon" said (about one of the versions of the new R-1200-S being a "999 Beater):

I'm told that this is truly one of the versions.

But... But... But, Dean... I thought *YOUR* already was a Ducati 999 Beater!

I think BMW is going to have to go a long, loooooooooooooong way for any R-1200-S to actually be any sort of "999 Beater", even with a near 200 cc displacement advantage...

I can remember when BMW was saying the K-1200-S was going to be a "Hayabusa Beater", too... And that didn't happen! Not even close...

Cheers!

Dallara

It'll beat it... just you wait...

THEY'LL MAKE IT COST MORE!!!


Bry

[new2BMW]

I doubt that Dean is intending to say that the R1200S will definitly beat a 999, but that the bike is being billed as a 999 beater. A lofty goal to be sure. However, let's compare 999 specs to potential specs of the new BMW.

The standard 999 is claimed by Ducati to have 140bhp and 80lb/ft of torque.

The R-ST engine is claimed to be 110bhp and 85lb/ft. If a nicely tuned R-S actually put out 120bhp and 85 or 90lb/ft, the engine performance could certainly make for a good competition.

The 999 is listed at 410lbs. If the R-S came in around that number and the wheel base was less than 56 inches, the handling could be on par.

On the track, it would take a hell of a bike to be a 999 beater. On the backroads of the US, I think the torque and user friendly BMW power delivery could make a very fast bike capable of beating a 999.

Would I like for BMW to design and manufacture a full-on crotch rocket? Not really, because in order to do that they have to make the bike like the rest of the other companies: conventional fork setup, conventional engine setup, etc.

That's what they told Ducati in the late eighties. Look what they've done with a non-standard engine configuration and a steel tubed frame. (You're probably be right about the forks though.)

[Pat]

(Boasting of one's riding skills as "faster", "better", or "smaller chicken stripes"........ only encourages hooligan behavior on the parts of those who don't know any better. And frequently bragging is without merit..... It's often the quiet milk drinking pencil-necked geek who ends up spanking you effortlessly from the seat of his wife's pink 650. Stop with the boasting already; the geek lies in wait for you.... and he's running soft compounds on that pink bike!)

About the Beemer -vs- Duc' argument:
My buddy has a race ready street legal Ducati, -AND- an 1100'S'......
The Duc' has more torque, it's lighter, faster, and has a higher top-end. He looks tough-n-fine on his ever popular Italian Red Duc' and matching Red leathers
- BUT -
on the roads of California, through the foothills, up & down the coast, and racing down our back-country roads, he's ONE HELL OF A LOT FASTER ON HIS BMW 1100'S' than he is on the sexy Ducati.

My point is this:
BMW somehow makes a machine/suspension that is easier to ride well under adverse conditions (anything short of a groomed race track). The Ducati is more at home on a track, save for the Multi-strada that is gaining popularity with street riders.

In the real world, on real roads, with equal riders...... I can see how this new rumored about mega-horsepower shaft drive "Rubber Cow" may in fact embarrass a 999R....... maybe.

[dallara]

Pat said:

(Boasting of one's riding skills as "faster", "better", or "smaller chicken stripes"........ only encourages hooligan behavior on the parts of those who don't know any better. And frequently bragging is without merit..... It's often the quiet milk drinking pencil-necked geek who ends up spanking you effortlessly from the seat of his wife's pink 650. Stop with the boasting already; the geek lies in wait for you.... and he's running soft compounds on that pink bike!)

Who, or where in this thread, was anyone "boasting" of one's riding skills?

Just curious as to why you tossed that part in...

Cheers!

Dallara

[Ty Webb]

Pat said:

(Boasting of one's riding skills as "faster", "better", or "smaller chicken stripes"........ only encourages hooligan behavior on the parts of those who don't know any better. And frequently bragging is without merit..... It's often the quiet milk drinking pencil-necked geek who ends up spanking you effortlessly from the seat of his wife's pink 650. Stop with the boasting already; the geek lies in wait for you.... and he's running soft compounds on that pink bike!)

Who, or where in this thread, was anyone "boasting" of one's riding skills?

Just curious as to why you tossed that part in...

Cheers!

Dallara

One thing I have learned lurking here is that Pat always tells Dean to slow down.

[Pat]

As so often I try to tell myself as well.......

[dallara]

But still, Pat...

Why would you say this in this thread?

(Boasting of one's riding skills as "faster", "better", or "smaller chicken stripes"........ only encourages hooligan behavior on the parts of those who don't know any better. And frequently bragging is without merit..... It's often the quiet milk drinking pencil-necked geek who ends up spanking you effortlessly from the seat of his wife's pink 650. Stop with the boasting already; the geek lies in wait for you.... and he's running soft compounds on that pink bike!)

Where, pray tell, was anybody "boasting" about their riding skills?????

Cheers!

Dallara

[yjleesvrr]

No Pat, you've got it all wrong. It's not the pencil-necked geeks. It's those old farts on 30 year old Yamaha standards that will lie in way for Squids! They give off that false modesty of, "Oh well, I just enjoy a nice Saturday afternoon ride to enjoy the scenery." Next thing you know, they're pulling away on a bike older than the Squid while the the latter frantically tries to keep up on his brand spanking new GSX-R600!

[Pat]

....and I was serious about the little old man on his wife's BMW 650!

I was riding with some rather skilled riders when they pulled into a parking lot overlooking the winding road below (I can't include myself as one of the -skilled-). When I finally caught up with them, the little man was nursing a bottle of water while puffed chests & bravado were busy being animated about the ride up.

I was on my R1150R and parked next to the Beemer single. A pleasant soft-spoken guy, he was grateful to be out and about enjoying the weather.

Long story made short,
he was still sitting and looking out on the scenery when we saddled up and rode off. I'm scared of downhill stuff, so I was riding at the back of the pack...... then I saw a headlamp coming up on me rather quickly. The little man on his wife's 650 passed me with ease, haunted the guys in front of me for 30 seconds, then passed each of them as if they were on Gold Wings!

I don't think it would be a matter of simply owning a nimble single cylinder for me to be able to ride that well.....

(Steve, you were there. Remember the guy?)

[Guest]

then I saw a headlamp coming up on me rather quickly. The little man on his wife's 650 passed me with ease, haunted the guys in front of me for 30 seconds, then passed each of them as if they were on Gold Wings!

I don't think it would be a matter of simply owning a nimble single cylinder for me to be able to ride that well.....

(Steve, you were there. Remember the guy?)



Pat:
I believe I recall the gentleman, and coming upon such folks always lets me realize that I still got a lot to learn when it comes to controlling these magical two wheelers even after 35+ years of riding... and it makes me real happy cause if I was at the top of the game, I'd probably get bored and quit.
Also, for that particular road, I do regularly get spanked by bikes closer to 'Super Motard' standards than the typical 'crotch rocket' of today.
ButtHead

[solitario11]

wowww 120HP from an air cool 1100cc engine? how can that be from an air cool engine? I dont see that engine working smotthly or for long, then again what do I know?

[collyers]

Pat has a point, IMHO. Being a "999 beater" means beating with style (forget THAT), BHP, and handling. Price? Easily beaten, even by BMW. As far as riding it goes..... how many times have you seen a Duc 996/8/9 SP or MV anything that was actually being ridden like it could be? How about never! The R1200S will probably be faster & quicker in the hands of Joe Above Average than a 999 will ever be, and with Dean-O on one, fuuggedaboudit. I tend to be that old-guy on the 620cc single that catches & passes all the R6/GSXR/R1/ZZ1200 riders in the swoops, and then waves as they go by @ 140mph on the straights. 99% of the buyers of 999s can only ride them at about 40%. R1200S/GS/ST riders can usually eek quite a bit more from their mounts, and in real world terms, this is a giant difference.
Or, I could be wrong.