Need to Replace a Clutch

[MMH]

Got a R1150R 2 weeks ago & noticed that the clutch was slipping today. The bike is a 2002 w/ 30K miles & I was going to inspect the input splines anyway this winter but was not planning on this. So, I do want to plan ahead and have some basic questions. First of all where should I get the clutch? What kind of clutch (I keep hearing about Siebenrock). Do I need to get just the clutch disc or is there a kit that includes the pressure plate? Is there a flywheel that needs to be resurfaced or another pressure palate of sorts). Should I modify the clutch hub w/ a spacer to get fuller spline engagement? I will plan on replacing the slave cylinder. Finally, suppose that my input shaft is tore up, where do I get a new input shaft or is it easier to try to find a replacement tranny?

Finally, if I can stay away from full throttle, can I continue to run the bike for another couple of months until winter sets in?

[kirby]

You did not describe in what manner your clutch is slipping. Is it at full or hard acceleration in top? or 4th? or 3rd? where does it start to slip.
As long as you can ride normally and avoid the slip (like using less throttle) and can cruise normally without slip you could probably ride many many miles. But if you are hard on the clutch by the way you ride????

In order to know what you need to get you must tear it down and inspect. As for the non standard stuff you will have to decide that on your own.
Replacing the input shaft requires a transmission tear down and some special tools. Not usually a good idea unless you have some real time guidance from someone that knows how to do it. (sorta means present to watch and guide).

Usually only requires a clutch friction plate, but with only 30K that an amazingly short time to loose a plate.(is your rear seal leaking oil onto the clutch?) I inspected mine at 169K (input shaft perfect) and the plate was .300 thick and a new plate measured .315" so did not change it.

[MMH]

I noticed the clutch slipping under hard acceleration. To confirm I shifted into higher gears & at 3500 rpm did a full roll on throttle roll on (started at a cruise & then twisted the throttle all the way). Sure enough, the clutch was slipping. If I gently ride the bike, the clutch does not slip. I agree that 30K miles being short, but, if someone does not know how to properly shift... and, as I said, I just picked up the bike so I can't say how it was ridden in the past.

Obviously, it is impossible to ascertain exactly what needs to be replaced w/o disassembly. I just wanted to see what was typical. For instance, on an automotive/truck clutch the pressure plate is typically replaced w/ the disc. The flywheel, generally not, but requires inspection. What parts are commonly replaced w/ an R1150R clutch? It would be nice to have most of the parts on hand to minimize the amount of time that the bike is apart.

Yes replacing an input shaft will require a transmission tear down. I just saw a couple of youtube videos on it and it does not look much different than any other manual tranny that I have rebuilt. What option do I have? I would venture to say that most used gearboxes will have varying degrees of spline wear. And, having BMW rebuild it would be cost prohibitive. Maybe I will get lucky & the input splines will be OK. Just based on all the reading that I have been doing, I am not expecting this to be the case.

[kirby]

I tried to imply that if it does not slip during normal ops its good indefinitely. Obviously you can't tell anybody what buy or have on hand until its torn down. I stated that normally its just a friction plate.
Since you are experienced in transmission rebuild then you should not have any problem with teardown reassembly, I had no idea of your experience. I can't imagine a pressure plate being bad in 30K.
You could purchase the whole thing and return what you do not need if time is critical?? Now days, unless your on the moon these thing can be had in less than 4 days. First time you tear one of these down your probably talking 4 or more days for the job maybe longer.
What's typical?
I stated also that at 169K my input shaft shows no damage. With your experience you should know to plan for the worst case if history is unknown.

Fact is Getrags' are very robust and rarely fail under normal use. If? shaft is bad a used transmission is a good choice at least you can inspect before buying/install or return. I would say about $500/$600 for a good one.

You asked for an opinion so just tying to help with my experience.

Good luck.

[MMH]

Kirby, I understand and I hope that my reply did not come across as defensive or aggressive. Time is not super critical as I am hoping not to to have to get into this until winter sets in, and then, I will have many months to do it at my own pace. The timing concern was based on parts availability - not concerned about 4 days but concerned about a part that is no longer being made and taking 4 months. Again, just got this bike and not familiar w/ older BMWs.

So on the pressure plate(s), if they are glazed, is it standard procedure to scuff them up w/ scotch brite or emery cloth? Does anybody get them turned on a lathe?

I am still hoping that the input splines are OK, but getting myself mentally prepared for the worst. I am seeing the input spline going for $330 & I figure another $100 in consumables. Quickly looking at ebay last night had some transmissions available, tor $500 or $600 but, they all had some degree of spline wear. For about the same money, I'd rather just get another transmission, but only if I could find one w/o the spline wear. What is the best source for these?

Back t the clutch disk itself, I am still soliciting opinions. Should I get it modified for full spline engagement? Should I get a OEM clutch or if aftermarket?

Thanks.

[jasondo]

Here is probably what happened. Your slave cylinder bearing failed and caused the piston and seal in the slave cylinder to start spinning and wear out the anodidized aluminum coated walls which in turn causes brake fluid to leak past, run down the push rod which contacts the diaphragm spring, then gets flung all over your friction plate. How do I know this? It happens all the time to these bikes at the 30k mark that did not have proper servicing. Including my Rockster. Your input splines are fine. No need to worry about those. Just grease them up real good when you do the clutch job and don't beat it when you ride. Also you probably wont need the to replace the clutch plates. They have 100k more miles of life left. Just clean them very well in a parts washer. As far as what friction plate to buy? OEM OEM OEM! You'll also need to buy the one time use only hardware for the flywheel and clutch assembly. Also can't stress enough the importance of making alignment marks on the clutch assembly before you disassemble to make it easier to put back together. Otherwise you could end up with bad vibration.

[MMH]

Here is probably what happened. Your slave cylinder bearing failed and caused the piston and seal in the slave cylinder to start spinning and wear out the anodidized aluminum coated walls which in turn causes brake fluid to leak past, run down the push rod which contacts the diaphragm spring, then gets flung all over your friction plate. How do I know this? It happens all the time to these bikes at the 30k mark that did not have proper servicing. Including my Rockster. Your input splines are fine. No need to worry about those. Just grease them up real good when you do the clutch job and don't beat it when you ride. Also you probably wont need the to replace the clutch plates. They have 100k more miles of life left. Just clean them very well in a parts washer. As far as what friction plate to buy? OEM OEM OEM! You'll also need to buy the one time use only hardware for the flywheel and clutch assembly. Also can't stress enough the importance of making alignment marks on the clutch assembly before you disassemble to make it easier to put back together. Otherwise you could end up with bad vibration.

Yea, I've been reading up on that. So, can I rebuild my slave ($35) or replace ($105)? What is proper servicing for these - periodic bleeding? How do you lube up the splines? I don't want to overdo it and have excess lubricant get flung out to the friction plate. Could comment on the alignment marks - I tend to do that anyway, but a reminder is always good. As low as the torque is on the hardware, I am surprised that they are one time use (perhaps the new ones have deformed threads to prevent them backing out), but cheap insurance so I will do it.

[kirby]

The first time I demated mine 169,000) the splines were dry and I saw just the green residue from the factory. They(splines) show almost no ware. I had never lubed them since I bought it new in '04. In my long history with the oil head the tale tale sign that the splines may need lube is hard shifting. Go LIGHT on some good high temp grease, very light.
I have never bled my clutch but replaced (master) with a new one since I had it down.
As I said the clutch plate was hardly worn so even though I had a new on I did not replace. New flywheel bolts are required by the BMW engineers so they should be replaced.(stretch)
The input shaft new is expensive and the main input bearing (at least) should be replaced so that is why you might be better off shopping for a used trans. Beemerboneyard is a good choice for that. If you go for a new plate use the oem or the wunderlitch supplied one. I bought the oem. If the pressure plate or flywheel is "glazed" then you will have to use your own judgment on how to deal with that. I have used a fine emery cloth on these things in the past but I have never had to do it on the beemer. Steel is harder than the friction material so it just a matter of cleaning the surfaces.
Mark the assembly so you can return to the same for balance.
As far as spline extender/spacer? ($300?? I am told) I am not a fan. (would not do it but that just my opinion).

Parts are all readily available. Beemerboneyard is a good source for all parts and advice. Frist class folks.

[vwdoctor]

Check the status of the clutch fluid at the master cylinder. Take the starter out. Takes 10 minutes. Check the status of the clutch plate for oil contamination. While you are there check for the condition of the splines using the "freeplay" test.
Continue based on findings.
Spacer only fits OEM BMW clutch plate (Sachs) not the Siebenrock plate.

[peels]

sorta in the same boat.

Ill be splitting mine apart this winter as well. weepy, gear oil leak. And partly to clean/lube and inspect input shaft. Really just want the experience, and the warm fuzzy feeling that I know whats up in there... I haven't had the time yet.

I have a game plan.

no wear, clean and lube. (fix oil seal though)
IF my splines are SEMI-worn. I will add the disc spacer with no clutch disc most likely.
IF VERY worn, i will go whole hog-used trans, new clutch and spacer.

bike only has 25k.

agree with jasondo. replace that slave, and don't look back. his post is pretty accurate as to what happens to cause slippy clutches.

[jasondo]

I agree with Kirby on passing up on the hub mod. It's not necessary. As far as what I meant by proper servicing? These bikes use dot 4 brake fluid unlike the dot 3 in your car. Dot 4 absorbs moisture more readily and requires a bi annual bleed. It's why the manual states to use fluid from a new sealed container. Not from that old dusty bottle you have had in your garage for 5 years. If your slave cylinder has failed rebuilding is not an option unfortunately. The rotating piston and seal will wear the anidozed coating off the cylinder walls effectively making it junk. Remove the piston and seal and see for yourself. Also if you do replace you'll see that magura adds very little grease to the bearing. I ended up packing the bearing with extra grease to ensure a long long life as this was the heart of the failure that lead to a ruined friction plate. One other tip to help increase the life of the slave cylinder, always shift to neutral at a light instead of holding in clutch.

[vwdoctor]

Quickly looking at ebay last night had some transmissions available, tor $500 or $600 but, they all had some degree of spline wear.

You are right about that. I just checked ebay and the ones with good pictures definitely show wear.

[trickytree]

For that sort of money I'd prefer to rebuild what I've got. Unlike second hand gear you have a good idea of what's good and bad about what you've got. (Having said that I've no idea what sort of prices parts are....not cheap I suspect).

[MMH]

I agree with Kirby on passing up on the hub mod. It's not necessary. As far as what I meant by proper servicing? These bikes use dot 4 brake fluid unlike the dot 3 in your car. Dot 4 absorbs moisture more readily and requires a bi annual bleed. It's why the manual states to use fluid from a new sealed container. Not from that old dusty bottle you have had in your garage for 5 years. If your slave cylinder has failed rebuilding is not an option unfortunately. The rotating piston and seal will wear the anidozed coating off the cylinder walls effectively making it junk. Remove the piston and seal and see for yourself. Also if you do replace you'll see that magura adds very little grease to the bearing. I ended up packing the bearing with extra grease to ensure a long long life as this was the heart of the failure that lead to a ruined friction plate. One other tip to help increase the life of the slave cylinder, always shift to neutral at a light instead of holding in clutch.

So is bi annual twice a year or once every two years? I kind of figured that I needed a new slave & not just rebuild it but thought I would ask. As this is a dry clutch, I have every intention of shifting to neutral instead of holding in the clutch. One of my pet peeves when people do not do that.

[MMH]

Thanks to all for the replies. So here is my game plan:
1. Tear down & inspect.
2. If just bad disk & dry: replace disk, bleed slave & lightly lube spline. Out $200 & worker juice (beer)
3. If just bad disk & wet: replace disk, put in new slave & lightly lube spline. Out $300 & worker juice (beer)
4. If bad disk & spline & dry: replace input shaft & disk & bleed slave. Lightly lube spline. Out $600 & ALLOT (add $100 to the job) of worker juice.
5. If bad disk & spline & wet: replace input shaft, disk & slave. Lightly lube spline. Out $700 & ALLOT (add $100 to the job) of worker juice.

Gut feel is that I will just need a disk & slave so that is what I will have on hand before starting. Still hoping that I can easily ride for a couple of months before I have to do that. Worst case is that I repo my son's bike (KTM 625 SuperMoto). This will encourage him to help me fix my bike.

[jasondo]

Yes bi annual means every other year. Semi annual would be twice a year. My money is on option #3. Keep us posted!! Also if it helps I machined my own clutch alignment tool and two of the threaded posts you need to help align the bolts when you remove and install the gearbox. PM me you info and I would be happy to send it to you. Hard to do this job without these tools. I just ask that you send it back when finished. God only knows if ill need them again...

[MMH]

Yes bi annual means every other year. Semi annual would be twice a year. My money is on option #3. Keep us posted!! Also if it helps I machined my own clutch alignment tool and two of the threaded posts you need to help align the bolts when you remove and install the gearbox. PM me you info and I would be happy to send it to you. Hard to do this job without these tools. I just ask that you send it back when finished. God only knows if ill need them again...

Thanks. A clutch alignment tool would be very useful. I think I can make the "threaded posts" easy enough (cut down M8 bolts), but if you already have them that's even easier. I'll send you a PM.

[MMH]

OK, so I plan on going with a Siebenrock basic plus plate (cheaper than OEM) & inspect pressure plates – assume that they will be OK. Although I expect the slave to be bad should I replace even if it is dry & looks good? At this point I am going to hope that the input splines are good, but if they are not, will replace the input shaft.

[lguardiola]

MMH,
I am in the same boat as you (also have a post here name "clutch slipping in high gear")....I noticed the same thing as you, if normal operation everything worked fine but if I was in 5th or 6th gear and I open the throttle the engine would rev up but it would not advance..I had to release the throttle and slowly ease up on it to get more speed....if you go to my post you will see a lot picture that I posted of when I took it apart...in my case I still don't know what caused the issue, neither the seal on the engine side or the gearbox side show signs of oil leakage and the slave cylinder also seems to be in good condition.....I have to do more research to find out what is causing an oil leak...

I already have the clutch plate on hand to replace but I'm still working on fixing the main problem, i.e oil in the clutch assembly....
if you or anyone on here has any ideas or tips please let me know...

[MMH]

lguardiola,
I have seen your post - you put up some great photos that will be helpful for me. Also will be a good point of reference when comparing to what I find when I tear mine down. I'll post what I see then. Curious why you did not install a Siebenrock oil proof disk if you cannot identify the source of your oil leak. They are more expensive, but maybe the fix for you.