I have noticed over the last few rides that there is a pronounced rattle around 4000 rpm when the bike is in gear. Seems to be on the right side of the bike. Not there at 3750 and below, not there at 4250 and above. It is more pronounced in gears one and two and is worse if cutting the throttle above 4000 rpm and letting it rev down through 4000 rpm.
I just changed the transmission oil (75-140) and final drive oil (80-90), both are filled to the bottoms of the threads as recommended, only a smudge of metal was on the magnetic drain plugs. I am not sure if the rattle has been there all along or just sprang up, since I did the oil change s myself I think my awareness has been heightened. It is not there if the bike is in neutral. Sounds like something in the drive line but why there at 4000 rpm only? Harmonics?
Made sure all nuts and bolts are not loose, removed system cases, tools to make sure that it wasn't those things that were rattling..
Any ideas?
Somethings rattling...
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Somethings rattling...
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Member #48
pj
Member #48
pj
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NHighCotton
- Basic User
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http://r1150r.org/board/viewtopic.php?t ... ht=ringingnoticed the same thing after I changed my gear oil, and it's not pinging as some think.
ear plugs fixed mine
2003 R1150R (SOLD 8/07)
(9/07) 05 FJR1300
1986 R80RT
1974 R90s antique (on the road again)
(9/07) 05 FJR1300
1986 R80RT
1974 R90s antique (on the road again)
Mine started, just as described above, when my ignition coil went bad (running like crap for several days until I got it fixed). Glad to hear I'm not the only one. For a time I thought it might be related to the timing belt. I've learned to ignore it.NHighCotton wrote:
noticed the same thing after I changed my gear oil, and it's not pinging as some think.
ear plugs fixed mine
This sounds crazy, but the same thing happened to me when I first bought my bike. The rattle started around 3500 - 4000 rpm. I finally got sick of it and diagnosed the problem. It was the backside of my clock. Apparently the screw back there is too long causing the back of the clock to screw into the clock itself; however, it does not make good contact with the housing on the frame. This causes it to vibrate and rattle. I remedied the problem by placing a rather thick washer in there. That was a task all in itself, considering I have a sportshield, and it is all but impossible to get my hand in there to work. The good news is that I fixed the rattle. It is a long shot that your clock is causing the rattle, but when I first experienced it, I had no idea where it was coming from. Hope this helps. If not you, then someone else.
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NHighCotton
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Well, I'll to look into the clock cause again ...... because .... mine is loose somewhat, so at first I thought I found my ringing.
So, I tool down the road until I hear it and push down on the clock while maintaining that ideal RPM, at first I did think I found it...but no cigar, tried it several times no avail.
I really need tighten the clock up anyway but it doesn't look like a simple quick job.
I was also thinking maybe it's gear lash since two of us already noticed it after changing the gear oil, maybe a heavier oil would make a diff? Or maybe the Cat since I noticed it after removing the can?
If your cause was the clock, I'll look closer, thanks.
So, I tool down the road until I hear it and push down on the clock while maintaining that ideal RPM, at first I did think I found it...but no cigar, tried it several times no avail.
I really need tighten the clock up anyway but it doesn't look like a simple quick job.
I was also thinking maybe it's gear lash since two of us already noticed it after changing the gear oil, maybe a heavier oil would make a diff? Or maybe the Cat since I noticed it after removing the can?
If your cause was the clock, I'll look closer, thanks.
2003 R1150R (SOLD 8/07)
(9/07) 05 FJR1300
1986 R80RT
1974 R90s antique (on the road again)
(9/07) 05 FJR1300
1986 R80RT
1974 R90s antique (on the road again)
Hmmm...
MIXR,
I did read it just after I posted this topic. If it is the cam chain tensioner, why does it not rattle when the bike is in neutral or clutch disengaged? Does it require a 'load' to make it rattle?
I did read it just after I posted this topic. If it is the cam chain tensioner, why does it not rattle when the bike is in neutral or clutch disengaged? Does it require a 'load' to make it rattle?
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Member #48
pj
Member #48
pj
Hmmmm - Trying to remember the sequences that gave me a 'rattle'. As I recall, it tended to be when I would first pull up after decellerating. The cam chain would only rattle (slap) for a few seconds until enough oil got behind the piston to damp out the spring motion of the tensioner (or something like that). Then it would quieten down. Ditto with startup - It only rattles until the tensioner picks up enough oil to be able to damp out the whip in the cam chain. If yours is really only at high RPM, it may be something else entirely. Also, what model bike is it? If it's pre 04 with the 17 mm head tensioner, it's still a good thing to change. Otherwise, it may well be the 'throb' of the engine at those RPMs causing something to rattle (like the clock!!!!)
I ride an R1150GS Adventure with sidecar. IBA #39193
Another guess
PJ - I decided to look into this with a bit more thought and just did a quick 80 km test ride. Wanted to see if there were any other symptoms I was overlooking. I was stunned by the result.
I am assuming you have found nothing loose, and the cat and can inners are still intact and not broken and rattling. I am also assuming your bike is NOT a late model one and DOESN"T have a 15 mm head on the cam chain tensioner.
I hadn't really tested my bike since the upgrade, so this is what I discovered. Before I did the upgrade, if you accellerated hard (up over 4,000 -5,000 rpm) their was a lot of what I would call 'engine clatter'. Decellerate and you would hear it on the way down as well. Stick your head down on the tank when cruising and you would hear engine clatter. Roll on the throttle and the clatter would get louder until it mixed with the general engine exhaust noises etc.
All very 'normal'. CRAP! It's noise that shouldn't be there and is what you just get used to as the bike gets older!!!!!!!!!!!!
On my little test ride half an hour ago, this is what I discovered post upgrade (EdK - This is the bit for you)
Accellerate hard and you get engine and exhaust noise, but bugger-all clatter. The noise was mostly coming from the damn cam chain!
Put your head down on the tank behind the screen at cruise speed and you hear .......... NOTHING! No rattly engine noises. Roll on the throttle and you get some engine noise and exhaust throb, as would be expected.
If you have a tensioner with a 17 mm head, then change it for the new one. I am still amazed at the difference, and firmly believe that I had just gotten used to the noises as 'normal'. My engine sounds like a new one!!!!!!! Go figure.
PJ - If you have the later model bike and 15 mm tensioner, then I'm at a loss to explain it. I know that I've just proved that the upgrade works in more ways than just at start and hot idle, and was worth every cent.
Ed - You need to have a listen to a later bike and see if you can pick the difference. It's something that you have also probably just become used to. I can't speak for your wallet, but I am just so pleased I took the punt.
I am assuming you have found nothing loose, and the cat and can inners are still intact and not broken and rattling. I am also assuming your bike is NOT a late model one and DOESN"T have a 15 mm head on the cam chain tensioner.
I hadn't really tested my bike since the upgrade, so this is what I discovered. Before I did the upgrade, if you accellerated hard (up over 4,000 -5,000 rpm) their was a lot of what I would call 'engine clatter'. Decellerate and you would hear it on the way down as well. Stick your head down on the tank when cruising and you would hear engine clatter. Roll on the throttle and the clatter would get louder until it mixed with the general engine exhaust noises etc.
All very 'normal'. CRAP! It's noise that shouldn't be there and is what you just get used to as the bike gets older!!!!!!!!!!!!
On my little test ride half an hour ago, this is what I discovered post upgrade (EdK - This is the bit for you)
Accellerate hard and you get engine and exhaust noise, but bugger-all clatter. The noise was mostly coming from the damn cam chain!
Put your head down on the tank behind the screen at cruise speed and you hear .......... NOTHING! No rattly engine noises. Roll on the throttle and you get some engine noise and exhaust throb, as would be expected.
If you have a tensioner with a 17 mm head, then change it for the new one. I am still amazed at the difference, and firmly believe that I had just gotten used to the noises as 'normal'. My engine sounds like a new one!!!!!!! Go figure.
PJ - If you have the later model bike and 15 mm tensioner, then I'm at a loss to explain it. I know that I've just proved that the upgrade works in more ways than just at start and hot idle, and was worth every cent.
Ed - You need to have a listen to a later bike and see if you can pick the difference. It's something that you have also probably just become used to. I can't speak for your wallet, but I am just so pleased I took the punt.
I ride an R1150GS Adventure with sidecar. IBA #39193
Tensioner
Ed - The problem is only with the left side, as it sits up high and has to be 'force fed' it's oil. It presses down on the chain, which is bathed in oil but not submerged in it. The right one is on the underside of the engine, and does not have any problems that have been identified. I guess it has some natural damping as it's always filled. Pity, as it would be the easy one to get to.
I've had a close look at the old one, and compared it to the new one. There appears to be more spring tension in the new one, but over a shorter distance. Didn't bother to measure it. I think the old one just had a weak spring and was unable to get the right volume of oil in and out fast enough as the chain 'whips'. The oil gallery in the piston may have been too effective and didn't allow the assembly to damp properly. Someone with more knowledge than me can explain it better.
I did another ride today, and was also surprised to find that on hard decelleration downhill, I have got a much quieter engine. Hard to measure, but the bike just feels and sounds so much better, smoother, quieter etc etc etc all over. The smoothness is also a surprise. I have a suspicion that the lack of 'whip' in the cam chain is also smoothing out some residual surging. I'll say it again, the whole shebang is so much better that it feels like a new engine!!!
Is it possible for the cam chain to whip to the extent that it affects timing and makes surging worse or add to engine vibrations???? Only a guess on my part, but if anyone can enlighten us, I'd appreciate a more knowledgeable comment.
Anyway, I think that I've hijacked this thread enough. I absolutely recommend this simple upgrade if you have even the remotest inkling that you have engine rattles at idle or at higher rpm.
Edit: Remember, the rattle is not supposed to be hurting anything. It just sounds really crappy and I hated the feeling that I was riding a diesel! Also really got some strange looks if I pulled up next to someone, or stopped for fuel. The clatter, which only lasted a few seconds, was just terrible and embarassing. All gone now, and I'm just so damn HAPPY!
I've had a close look at the old one, and compared it to the new one. There appears to be more spring tension in the new one, but over a shorter distance. Didn't bother to measure it. I think the old one just had a weak spring and was unable to get the right volume of oil in and out fast enough as the chain 'whips'. The oil gallery in the piston may have been too effective and didn't allow the assembly to damp properly. Someone with more knowledge than me can explain it better.
I did another ride today, and was also surprised to find that on hard decelleration downhill, I have got a much quieter engine. Hard to measure, but the bike just feels and sounds so much better, smoother, quieter etc etc etc all over. The smoothness is also a surprise. I have a suspicion that the lack of 'whip' in the cam chain is also smoothing out some residual surging. I'll say it again, the whole shebang is so much better that it feels like a new engine!!!
Is it possible for the cam chain to whip to the extent that it affects timing and makes surging worse or add to engine vibrations???? Only a guess on my part, but if anyone can enlighten us, I'd appreciate a more knowledgeable comment.
Anyway, I think that I've hijacked this thread enough. I absolutely recommend this simple upgrade if you have even the remotest inkling that you have engine rattles at idle or at higher rpm.
Edit: Remember, the rattle is not supposed to be hurting anything. It just sounds really crappy and I hated the feeling that I was riding a diesel! Also really got some strange looks if I pulled up next to someone, or stopped for fuel. The clatter, which only lasted a few seconds, was just terrible and embarassing. All gone now, and I'm just so damn HAPPY!
I ride an R1150GS Adventure with sidecar. IBA #39193
Mine comes from the right side...
MIXR,
I hear this on the right side of the bike [ the side where the throttle is if you read one of my earlier posts
] Left side sounds fine. I am going to go for a ride tomorrow and see if it crops up again. I should get in two tanks of gas. That would put to rest the idea that it is pinging on lower octane. If it is still there, I am going to take it into the shop and see if they hear anything.
cheers
I hear this on the right side of the bike [ the side where the throttle is if you read one of my earlier posts
] Left side sounds fine. I am going to go for a ride tomorrow and see if it crops up again. I should get in two tanks of gas. That would put to rest the idea that it is pinging on lower octane. If it is still there, I am going to take it into the shop and see if they hear anything. cheers
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Member #48
pj
Member #48
pj
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Ed K
- Lifer
- Posts: 307
- Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2005 10:24 pm
- Location: San Francisco East Bay Area, California
Thanks Mick... Decided to go for it... We'll let everyone know the outcome.
Btw... also had the loose-clock-screw issue... which is fixed.
The sound I get from what might be a bit of chain slap (that hopefully will be tighened up a bit with a new version tensioner) is very similar to the loose-clock-screw issue.
Also, there are pieces of the instrument cluster housing that sometimes resonates... which can also be fixed.
Interestingly, when I rode the R1200S... yes the new one... I noticed just a hint of the same chain slap noise. It was barely audible in the same RPM, but I am so in tune to this sound from my bike, I can hear it even when its minor. And when I rode an R100R... yes, 100, on Friday, it was silent in that way.
Btw... also had the loose-clock-screw issue... which is fixed.
The sound I get from what might be a bit of chain slap (that hopefully will be tighened up a bit with a new version tensioner) is very similar to the loose-clock-screw issue.
Also, there are pieces of the instrument cluster housing that sometimes resonates... which can also be fixed.
Interestingly, when I rode the R1200S... yes the new one... I noticed just a hint of the same chain slap noise. It was barely audible in the same RPM, but I am so in tune to this sound from my bike, I can hear it even when its minor. And when I rode an R100R... yes, 100, on Friday, it was silent in that way.
Ed K
07 K1200S
Lifetime Member
07 K1200S
Lifetime Member
Ed - I'll be interested to see if you notice any difference. I'm pretty sure you will, no matter how minor your noises might be. Let us know.
PJ - Someone on the ADV Rider site also said that they though the noise was on the right. A couple of responses (as I recall) indicated that the way the engine is set up, the sound can resonate through the engine and sound like it was being generated from the right. Turned out that the upgraded tensioner on the left also fixed the right side noises! You will have to do some hunting through some long posts about this subject from the GS boys (and girls).
As an aside, when I went to buy the bits I showed the BMW parts guy a photo of the bits and the part numbers. I asked him to first verify that these items were marked as the correct (current) cam chain tensioner for the 2001 R1150R (my bike). They were. This is not a shonky fix - It's a recognised fix from BMW, so I can only assume that they have accepted that the original parts just didn't work properly. May be different on different bikes, but it sure worked on mine!
PJ - Someone on the ADV Rider site also said that they though the noise was on the right. A couple of responses (as I recall) indicated that the way the engine is set up, the sound can resonate through the engine and sound like it was being generated from the right. Turned out that the upgraded tensioner on the left also fixed the right side noises! You will have to do some hunting through some long posts about this subject from the GS boys (and girls).
As an aside, when I went to buy the bits I showed the BMW parts guy a photo of the bits and the part numbers. I asked him to first verify that these items were marked as the correct (current) cam chain tensioner for the 2001 R1150R (my bike). They were. This is not a shonky fix - It's a recognised fix from BMW, so I can only assume that they have accepted that the original parts just didn't work properly. May be different on different bikes, but it sure worked on mine!
I ride an R1150GS Adventure with sidecar. IBA #39193
I also just completed the cam chain tensioner upgrade and noticed that the engine is quieter, not only at initial start-up, but at all rpm ranges. In addition, the hunting/surging I experience intermittently was significantly decreased (probably because of less slop in changing valve timing) until I filled up with Exxon/Mobil Super... after using el cheapo Kenan mid-grade with Valvoline fuel injector cleaner added. I've seen other threads about gas brands effects on drivability, but I could feel the bike vibrating and delivering less power as soon as I got out of the gas station. I wonder if their Super grade gas burns too slow for the ignition timing of my engine? This seems contrary to what I've always believed about engine performance...
Rich
ADIOS!
ADIOS!
Thanks Sunbemer - Seems to confirm what I've discovered as well. Another twist in the story with the fuel quality though. We have (generally) got good fuel here, and even plain unleaded is at least 95 octane. I get pinging (pinking) with some brands of plain unleaded, but not others. It will be interesting to see if the tensioner mod changes that as well.
I ride an R1150GS Adventure with sidecar. IBA #39193
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NHighCotton
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